COPAA LAWS

Discussion in 'Norrathian Homeshow' started by Niboota, Dec 17, 2019.

  1. Niboota Well-Known Member

    Ok I think I want to say this differently before I get any comments (I think I sounded a little negative without meaning to, and I don't want to start any fires).

    If you are a content creator on YouTube, you already know this, but they've changed the rules about how we post our videos, that involves some risk in my opinion, and I am no longer comfortable leaving my videos public, so I'm making them all private. I wanted to give a heads up in case any of you have them linked. If YouTube offers a 'General Audience' choice of some sort in the future, I'll open them back up.

    Not everyone is going to feel the way I do, so if you don't know anything about this, you might look into it for yourself.

    EDIT: In the mean time if I have the only video documentation of a home you've designed, and you want to post it yourself, just let me know. I have every video I've ever made, and I'm sure we could utilize Dropbox or some other service so I can get that video to you. I should probably add that to my OP.
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  2. Uwkete-of-Crushbone Well-Known Member

    Yikes! :eek:

    Bloody YouTube; why'd they have to go and sell out to bloody Google? Bunch of hassle after that, if you ask me. :-/

    I do my screenshots via www.DeviantArt.com. They also have a video option for things (and even that is free, last I knew), but I've never used it yet, and I'm not sure if I could "publish" directly from DA to here, rather than having to go through YouTube.

    If so, that might be another option for videographers. :)

    Uwk
    who thinks that YouTube will lose more content providers that way... :-/
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  3. Febrith Well-Known Member

    Hey Niboota I get it, I really do - for people like us it's slightly dodgy with our particular content i.e gaming - is that made for kids? I decided it wasn't, and apart from the very occasional swear word (and nothing outrageous at that) in over 1000 videos, I don't think there's much cause for alarm - well I'm adopting a "suck it and see" attitude. Now that the channel has grown so much I'm loathe to take down people's videos as, in some cases, it'll be the only record they have of all their hard work.
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  4. Ocarinah Well-Known Member

    Until I get more time to check out everything with this new sucky change I have marked all the videos private (about 450 of them) except 4 videos which are marked unlisted. The 4 videos are 2 for Blood of Luclin and 2 for Frostfell house item previews. Being unlisted people can still get to the videos through links which is how I prefer those videos anyway so Denmum's site gets traffic. She has so much excellent information. I also marked all the playlists as private as well. I try really really hard not to swear but sometimes I might slip up. I don't know all the rules and not enough time to figure it out at this moment. I do know some of the videos have graphic gore like blood (NotD) and some houses have naughty references to sexual things. I did add info to the About section of my channel making it clear it is content meant for adults. I do want to get the old videos back out there for people but will take some time. I might be able to mark some of the videos as unlisted if I know the videos are safe and someone really needs the video (not sure if you can download your house videos from my channel sort of thing). New videos will be on hold until I can figure out what all I need to do to make myself safe from fines.

    Grumbles why why why why...
  5. Geroblue Well-Known Member

    From several people's videos on Youtube, they claim that the FTC can fine a creator up to $45,000 dollars under certain circumstances.

    If you mark a video not for kids, according to the videos I have watched I'm not an expert, and the FTC decides it is for kids, they can fine you. The fine can be as high as $45,000

    What happened ?

    Youtube/Google was fined. So now they dropped the decisions on how to categorize a video, onto the creaters, not youtube/Google.

    I'm not a lawyer, etc. The above is what I picked up by on watching videos on youtube talking about it.

    I had about 6 hiking and camping videos up there. No talking nor descriptions; rain in a state park, a walk around an area, part of one trail, etc. I took them down.
  6. Niboota Well-Known Member

    And YouTube could fix this entire issue if they would give a 'General Audience' or 'Mixed Audience' option. We would not be at any risk at all if they would do that. As it stands, we have only 2 options: Mark it for children under the age of 13, which turns off comments and completely drops your video from the algorithm (which sucks if you are a monetized channel), or mark it for Adults 18+. If gamers do that, then the FTC could legally fine you. From what I've read and seen, they are probably not going to go after anyone who marks their videos 18+ but are in the middle, like Everquest 2. However.... YouTube's algorithm has already started automatically marking certain videos as For Children under the age of 13 (at this point it seems to be mostly videos that actually have children or people who appear to be children in them, but starting January 1st it's going into full force and will most likely be much more widespread. I -personally- expect animations, which would include video games, to be next on the chopping block), and I'm just not willing to take that chance. Hopefully YouTube will adjust their algorithm appropriately, then go back and add some sort of 'General Audience' rating in the near future and fix this entire problem. This is something they should have worked out back in 2013. They were violating COPAA by NOT enforcing this in the first place.
  7. Niboota Well-Known Member

    I totally understand why you are making that choice, and it's a totally reasonable reasonable risk. The FTC probably isn't going to come after gamers. You are also located in the UK, and since YouTube is an American company, the UK is not legally subject to our laws, so I don't imagine you could be fined (I don't know that for sure of course - maybe the UK has some sort of cooperative with the US but I doubt it). In your case, probably, the worst possible outcome is they ban your videos. I've been considering what I want to do for 2 1/2 weeks. I hate the idea of cutting someone off from their only way of sharing their work, but for me, it's not worth taking a chance over; even a small one. And really, I've barely toured in the last 2-3 years. Most of the homes I've toured were done by decorators who don't play the game now and probably won't care.
  8. Uwkete-of-Crushbone Well-Known Member

    Gods-damn it, why the heck didn't YouTube/Google slap "ratings" on ALL video content at the very beginning, or at least when Google took them over? Even video games have the ESRB rating, prominently displayed on the cover, and with Google itself (I think), if you want to view something that might be outre, you have to log in and swear on a stack of the holy books of your choice that you are actually 18 or whatever. :-/

    Even DeviantArt has a "Mature" and "Adult" filter rating; if you don't log in to your (free on up) account, all you see is the General, filtered stuff, not the Mature or Adult (I do have, ah, Adult Content in my Favorites folders there, but I've also definitely marked it as such) content.

    I can understand the FTC (Federal Trade Commission) freaking out and "Protecting the Chillllllllldrennnnn At All Costs," but other than trying to get more revenue, why punish a creator for going overboard the other way, and -- oh. Guess I just answered my question. ;->

    Uwk
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  9. Geroblue Well-Known Member

    Some companies have people who reason, and some don't. I have found that to be true of every place I have ever worked.
  10. Febrith Well-Known Member

    I honestly don't know if they could fine me or not, but they could easily shut me down by just deleting my channel - noooooo! That would suck (for many reasons i.e. I've worked freaking hard to build up even my tiny audience) because obvs I haven't kept those videos on my PC (can you imagine how much space that would take up - I'd need one of those NASA super-computers LOL).
    All I can suggest is for any EQ player who has a video that I've done for them that they want to keep on their own PC, then use a Youtube Downloader programme and copy it to your own rig - just in case!
  11. Dude Well-Known Member

    Countries fine foreigners all the time. Also, being physically in a country isn't necessary to violate their laws. This is especially true when it comes to the internet. YouTube recognizes this and includes the following note in their Terms of Service:

    Governing Law
    All claims arising out of or relating to these terms or the Service will be governed by California law, except California’s conflict of laws rules, and will be litigated exclusively in the federal or state courts of Santa Clara County, California, USA. You and YouTube consent to personal jurisdiction in those courts.
  12. Lera Well-Known Member

    I'm not sure that's allowed. The issue with this law isn't content. It's not about keeping kids from seeing content meant for adults like swearing or violence. It's about collecting personal information from children under 13 - and a comment from a kid is considered personal information. "Hi, I'm Jane and I love your video", posted under the kid's username which, for some reason, her parents allowed to be her real name. A general audience category wouldn't keep anyone from collecting information from kids, and might even be worse, since you're collecting it knowing your audience might include children. Isn't that what 'general audience' means?

    What got YouTube in trouble was tracking views for targeted advertising purposes. This, to me, seems incredibly stupid. If you don't want your child exposed to advertising, why is your child using the Internet? Are we really that concerned about YouTube showing Disney ads to kids who watch a lot of Disney videos? It seems even more stupid when the result is what we're seeing here - content meant for adults but mostly suitable for children getting taken down because of a fear of fines. I highly doubt the FTC is going to go after video game decorating videos, especially if they aren't advertising or on YouTube to make money, but you never know, so I get why people are worried.

    I have no idea how YouTube are going to fix this. If not, a whole lot of people are probably going to leave YouTube, whether they need to or not. Until then, if you disable comments and aren't tracking anyone, you're likely okay.
  13. Rushd Active Member

    I have very few videos on my channel but was thinking about becoming a videographer again. From my perspective this has everything to do with the EU's Data Protection laws (GDPR) that went into effect back in May 2018. The world took notice and other countries are following suit... and rightfully so. I work in physical security for a global company so I know from a corporate standpoint what the laws are designed for and what their intent is and why the laws and certain countries are pushing for this regulation. It's all about Personal Information sharing and how data is collected. It's more about how a company like youtube can gather info and how users/others can access that info is what is important, less about the content.

    Although I wouldn't put it past a company to cash grab for fines, I think it is highly unlikely housing videos for a game will be targeted. Sure we have heard of famous youtubers getting penalized, but I would venture a guess that their content or legal responsibilities may have been questionable more so than a slip of a cuss word here and there. I think this is more a liability clause for Youtube, not for the users.... think about it.

    Lets say for instance a you tuber has 1 million viewers for a game. You can venture a respectable percentage will be underage users. Now all that data, Name, birthdate (both considered PID) is not only attached to your content but is also attached to Youtube's data banks. A company like Youtube should be able to protect that information on the databank side but even the best companies in the world have had data leaks. Nefarious companies or people could also gather that information on the viewers from your content. This is where the issue is..... whether it be a comment or inappropriate settings for the persons profile allowing data to be shown. They are shifting the burden from themselves to the users.

    Now this could be for a variety of reasons, sometimes the devil is in the details. Like I said earlier, I wouldn't put it past them to target users for fines but I think only high revenue generating users will be targeted for reviews of those fines. The second reason I can think of is to force channels to take ownership of their audience. What that means is you would have to have a reasonable expectation to be able to identify someones age to be appropriate for your content. That's not currently possible, so to shift Youtube liability to the users is in their best interest for the time being. So for me, I'm considered a Data Controller.... I am in control of my content and now I am under the obligation to follow the laws associated with sharing that content. This is the same thing with this new law just re-branded under something different.

    This is what is likely to happen.... All profiles registered in Youtube will have to be verified for age then some type of system for an ESRB rating system can be applied to your content and be blocked to all appropriate age users. The likely hood of keep anonymity as a content creator or user will be long gone. This is exactly what EU's GDPR (France and Germany leading the charge) is fighting against. They want to be able to be Anon, but the other side needs that data to keep up with liability, safety and data usage concerns and more importantly for them, their advertising goals. I suppose they could keep unverified users, but maybe only be able to access the lowest rated content as public consumption.

    Sorry for the wall of text, but I thought it was important to explain my side to get you all thinking about it from another standpoint. If I were a videographer with loads of content, I would highly recommend those videos be saved offline. Before Youtube, Google had their own hosting that I used to use. They can shut it down overnight and content can be lost forever. What makes Youtube successful is attaching that advertising to your videos. Without that there is no incentive for them and I would expect a service charge to ensue as a content creator.
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  14. Feldon Well-Known Member

    YouTube can't fix this because YouTube did this:
    https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/blog/2019/09/youtube-pays-big-tracking-kids
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/life...daa48e-39e9-11e8-8fd2-49fe3c675a89_story.html

    YouTube was telling toy manufacturers that videos on regular YouTube (not YouTube kids) were being watched by millions of kids under the age of 13. They got lucrative advertising deals based on this information. Problem is, COPPA does not allow websites to track the activities of kids under the age of 13 without parental consent. YouTube had to pay over a $100 million fine for this.

    So the FTC has had a bit of rulemaking to decide that the ultimate responsibility for complying with COPPA should fall to the content creators. Even though we're not the ones who collect the information. Basically creators have two options:

    A) Set your video as kid-friendly. Your videos will then have no Comments, no Contextualized Ads (there goes 90% of your revenue), and will not appear in Recommended videos.

    B) Set your video as not kid-friendly. If an FTC staffer watches your video and decides, because it contains animation or anything else that might be "appealing" to children, you should be fined tens of thousands of dollars.


    The prevailing theory is that the FTC is not going to start fining content creators for making videos that they don't intend to be for children. However the wording is so vague on the definition of what makes a kid-focused video that it could literally apply to anything. Videos by CGP Grey are all animated. Even though it's all statistics and grown-up topics, does that count because it's animated? The FTC has also said that if the audience of a video, through no fault of the creator, has children under the age of 13, the draconian rules apply. How many? 1 child? 5% of the viewers? 25%? 50%? Nobody knows. You may have noticed more people saying the F word in their videos early on. People are doing this to make sure the FTC cannot declare these videos as "child-focused".

    The whole thing is a complete mess and ultimately YouTube's fault for targeting children in the first place. When they identified through cookie or online behavior that a viewer is a child under the age of 13, they should have done NOTHING. Instead they specifically marketed to them which is a clear violation of the law. Now the FTC wants to apply broadcast television rules to the rest of us.
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  15. Ocarinah Well-Known Member

    Thank you for the all the info, very helpful discussion. Thank you to the person that sent me links to videos of a video game creator that explained things.

    I have changed my videos so that they do not allow comments or ratings or ads. I have changed all the videos to public. I looked up the rating for Everquest 2. Has ESRB Rating Teen. I changed my "About" to include the ESRB Rating and the content description. I have audience not for children but not 18+ since Teen is over 13. I added to top of description for all the videos to include the ESRB Rating Teen and content description. It didn't take the spaces after the description so descriptions are messy but will not be for any future videos I upload. Hopefully I will be safe now plus people can see and/or download their video tours. I do still have all the videos on my cloud so I won't lose anything if my channel gets banned or something.
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  16. Niboota Well-Known Member

    Thanks for that info!
  17. Niboota Well-Known Member

    Because of extreme outpouring of questions, YouTube and the FTC may (and hopefully) make public statements with some better explanations and clarification. If this happens and it's made clear that we are truly not going to be in any sort of danger of receiving fines from the FTC or being penalized in some way by YouTube, then I will absolutely open my videos back up!

    In the mean time if I have the only video documentation of a home you've designed, and you want to post it yourself, just let me know. I have every video I've ever made, and I'm sure we could utilize Dropbox or some other service so I can get that video to you. I should probably add that to my OP.
  18. Niboota Well-Known Member

    This. SO much this! 100% agree.
  19. Geroblue Well-Known Member

    Since we have no control over what data is collected by Youtube, the problem is theirs. They are trying to blame us for their content levels. An absurdity.

    I'm not a lawyer, but I think the first fine is going to result in a test case that Youtube had desired to never happen.
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  20. Mercychalice Well-Known Member

    just curious - have any of the people here who have channels on youtube sent a message to them explaining the problem of your channel and the content of videos you offer, and how their categories are not broad enough to adequately describe the type of video you offer, and the type of audience you have? perhaps it's not something they've considered, and it does sound like a problem that needs to be addressed. I am certain this affects not only the folks who do channels like EQ2/1, but also other MMO games with their own audiences. They need things that mark as a lot of/some/no violence, some strong/mild/ language, etc. with options to categorize for each selection. you need to be able to select say, no violence, mild language or no violence, strong language. Options are needed is what I mean to say. This should be conveyed to them.