Guardian Revamp?

In no way, shape, or form am I arguing to design Guardians, or any other class, around PVP for a PVE application. You might actually try to read and comprehend Estred's arguments in this very thread calling for increased riposte and reversal proc damage/rates as a "PVP fix" in guardian damage. I clearly quoted and wrote in response to that alone. No where did I say this was a pve fix for the class.

roll on open beta then we can discuss/argue some more

Totally in agreement with you. I don't feel very uber anymore. I hold agro 10 times better than any other class but the damage produced leaves me feeling like Olive Oil.

I think that what ever is done to Guards Offensively and Defensively (and yes i think some of both is needed) then need to be a good viable option as the MT on 99% of EM and HM Fights... they should have the Tools to be able to tank any named in the game, but No 1 tank should be the only tank that can tank it. playing a monk i dont want to see the monk as the Only Tank that can tank then content... its not healthy for the game. I dont think it means monks need a nurf, but that Guards and maybe Pally's need to be made to be able to tank the content.

I am sure that if they are going to do ANY class changes they are already into Beta, and there we can talk about them. if they are not going to make ANY class changes then NOTHING we can say here will change that.

Monks may see a slight reduction to avoid power-creep but who knows. I know if DMP loot is a preview of ToV then Tank Gear will have upwards of 700 STA on them meaning a Paladin's percentage based heals will be healing for monster amounts of HP. I think they want Tanks to actually just survive through things without using Emergency Spells/Arts and actually require healers to heal more.

this would be a great thing for all tank. I hate it when i have to try to string saves together and any laps in saves of more then 1 sec and i am dead... its just not fun at that point... but thats me. It will also help all tanks if they move a way from so much 1 shot effects.

That's going to be up in the air until we see the new raid and hm group scripts...and how this going to translate in to more headaches for healers and less to tanks as I play both I'm prepared for a major headache.

I am prepared as well it depends on how it all meshes out, but unless Guardians get some seriously decent help in any AA revisions I don't see them being used for the majority of guilds unless they just nerf monks. I don't like throwing nerfs but sometimes they are needed. Originally Brawlers were meant to be able to tank, but getting hit was going to hurt so they were harder to heal with the pay off of higher damage. Well as the game progressed Plate Tanks got the avoidance of a Brawler (Shields OP) and the Brawlers got Mitigation increases to the point they are virtually wearing plate.

One-Shots came about as a way to challenge Tanks to use their temps. The occasional one-shot I can deal with and enjoy actually. However in DoV it became a one-shot every 35 seconds, which is just annoying. Monks rose in tanking because they could chain-temps to ignore those one shots. Guardian's could only do it if they were skilled.

I do understand what you are saying... but from all of the threads i have seen people do not say that they are seeing Monks tank over all others.. its that all tanks are tanking over Guards... If the underlying problem is that the Monk is THE Most Powerful Tank and the Most just TO Defensive tanking then i am willing to talk about it... i did in the monk thread... this is not the place for that...

I just dont think the Monk is the underlying problem here... I think the Guard does not have the Options they need. I have seen a lot of other tanks get Options, and know with the Hot Swapping of AA/Prestige its all about the Options at hand. Guard's need to have there Options looked at and revamping some... like you and others have laid out.

Correct, Monk is the easiest example due to them being the BEST tank over the others, who all trump Guardians anyway. The Guardian is deeply hurting. I really am waiting on the 15th for jumping on Beta and giving a full feedback about it. Probably will talk it over with Rhita, Shoukin's Guardian and a friend of mine.

Watching you and Silzin discuss tank balance is lulz. I'll just leave it at that. Let Rhita do the feedbacking, you're more likely to get a class that works that way. Silzin, just stop talking about how Monks don't need adjusted in the end game. You have zero idea what's needed for end game fights.

i have not claimed to be an expert on End Game Raiding... but i do know the monk and i seem to be the only monk that is talking out here about any changes let alone Positive changes for all classes.

Well it would be a pleasant surprise if they continue with the promised character revamp part 2 during beta but who knows....I'll be there regardless kicking the tires to see if the devs actually listened to a lot of what the community said....doubtful but never know.

I have no idea what you guys are complaining about, I main a Guardian and my LOWEST dps on single target names in full defensive is usually 350-450k. I almost never die, even when I want to, 90+ % avoidance on almost every name, 3 trigger group death save every 90 seconds, 15 sec aoe block for you and all tanks in raid every 30 seconds, recapture for mem wipes, 10% damage reduce for all healers, up to 50% damage reduce for your group, 4 trigger 60 sec recast stoneskin, 3 trigger 120 sec recast skin, 150 sec 7 trigger recast skin, 30 seconds of defensive minded triggering skins after EVERY avoid, which is basically every attack stoneskinned, 20 seconds of 100% parry every 90 seconds. Roughly -35% physical damage reduction between procs and temps. What more do you want

Algid give us an idea of your gear then come back. I average 350-450 myself depending on the fight but the Monk/Pally/Bruiser/SK in the same position as me (MT) is doing 600,000-1,000,000. That is why you don't see Guards very often.

On aoe fights, you can do 700-1mil on a guardian, a Monk-Sk-Paly will do more obviously, the only thing that I will agree is OP- Dragon fire, one skill should not do 400k dps on an aoe fight. If they nerfed that, that same monk doing 1mil will do 700-800k

I have been saying for some time that the Prestige AA that modifies Dragon Fire needs to be modified or changed to a different ability... monks are a Single Target Tank and it just does not fit the class... its DPS strength needs to be moves doe the Right Side of the Prestige Tree Somewhere. so that when a monk goes all Right side they do not lows dps from live on ST fights, but we would on Double Conversion witch is more Defensive.

But i Digress this is about what Guards need to be made a more Viable tanking option all around. not how to nerf other classes to bring then down to where guards are in tanking atm...

Really imho:

1. Make the guard death save like berserker vision of madness save, where it's cast and then lasts until cancelled or until it's used up. Also consider lowering the cooldown a bit.

2. Dramatically change reversal. This goes for berserkers wearing shields as well, their single target dps is far below monk/sk/etc. It should do more damage and the cooldown should be much, much, shorter. Even 10 seconds is too long imho. Maybe more like 3.

3. In the prestige tree, the right hand side needs changed. Instead of making abilities do more damage if you *aren't* the target of the mob, it should make the abilities do more damage if you *are* the target of the mob.

4. Do something more interesting with the left hand side prestige. Not sure what. Then again, at least it's more interesting than the monk ones.

Number 3 and Number 2 should boost guardian single target dps a bit when tanking, to a decent place hopefully. Stoneskins being useful is probably more dependent on how the content works.

They are talking about giving guards an ability that converts ae auto to flurry chance.

Basically its an alternate to singular focus that gives flurry to up DPs on single mob fights.

It also gives like full-time double up or something amazing for CAs. Can't wait to make my right-side, reckless Guardian!

I'm serious, btw.