Focused Scout Feedback

We're requesting focused feedback on the current state of each class. We're particularly interested in suggestions on how to make the classes more enjoyable, such as improving tedious abilities to be more user-friendly. Balance issues are always a concern, but numbers tend to spotlight those issues, while it's easy to overlook problems that simply make the classes less fun than they should be.

We do read your normal forum feedback, but we have had the most success with feedback during betas and in the testing forum. However, it's difficult to address existing class issues when the focus is on new additions. The idea here is to put the focus on the classes as they exist on live, including everything from the new Prestige Abilities to the spells and combat arts granted at early levels. We're going to close this thread at the end of next week, but we'll do more focus feedback threads if they are successful. The goal is to get some improvements to live with the next game update.

Thanks!

Swashbuckler's ranged ability "Storm of Steel" (that we first got back at level 55 during DoF expansion) needs to be fixed/changed. This request has been put in many times over the years, yet it's been ignored. Rangers USED to have a similar ability (Stream of Arrows), and it got fixed/changed...to the point that it's an ability that they use now.

It's one of those useless abilities that I never even bother to put on my hotbar. If someone gave me a free level 94 Master of Storm of Steel, I'd mute it with hopes of a mana. The only way I master it out is by letting my researcher work on it...it's not even worth wasting a rare to have an Expert version made.

The swashbuckler's "Disarming Grin" (single target mesmerize) is also pretty much useless. Again, it's another ability that never (rarely) gets used. Who does crowd control these days?

I'll try to add more later on tonight!

Xelgad:

How extensive of feedback are you looking for? Sweeping changes? Full mechanic add-ons that can be added via the Prestige system? Or are you looking to stay simple? Like tweaking/merging abilities.

Just need to know so I can tailor my feedback accordingly, because I have a very large amount of ideas, but don't want to post them if they're not what you're looking for.

Looking forward to helping out!

Tedious abilities: all rear based abilities,
one thing I seem to have a problem with is my rear based ability and trying to land them in time to make all of my debuffs effective.

For example in raids we will pull multiple mobs and most of the mobs are large and are hard to determine if you’re in the front or the rear, especially when you’re assisting the MT, also when the mob is memwiping or being ripped just as you start your debuff chain it screws up your whole casting order. So by the time I find the rear of the mob to land a dispatch the mob is 40% dead.

If we could get some type of focus or AA ability to remove the rear base restriction Brigands won’t be as tedious to play.

That’s just my two cents and the only problem I have with my scout.

IMO all rear arc abilities should be rear/flank instead. It's way too easy to lose the rear arc with groups of mobs.

Ranger: Quite happy with their DPS output right now. One specific CA i have a problem with is 'Trick Shot.' I know of no rangers that use this for its 'hate' component since it generally proves useless. Instead it's simply just another ranged CA.

Utility: This speaks to the general lack of utility rangers have when compared to other top DPS classes. I don't want them to be putting out bard/enchanter utility or sacrificing DPS potential to do it, I just want them up to par when compared to other top DPS classes utility. Ranger's only recently got the group damage proc through prestige (heartseeker), but other DPS classes got similar abilities as well so the gap was more shifted instead of closed. Giving ranger's a max hp debuff would help solve this problem the quickest and easiest, but it is also not very innovative and boring. If something could be done that's more unique yet just as effective I would very open to it.

Minimum Range: This is something I am constantly changing my mind on and conflicted about. Some days minimum range gives me no problems, other days it is extremely annoying. I honestly don't know what I would do about it. If all hitbox's were tweaked to accommodate it, it would be much better but that seems like a constant chore to be done. then there are scripts and strats that have an almost direct conflict with minimum range.

I'll come at this another way. If it was up to me to kind of overhaul rangers to be more fun/enjoyable while not worrying about balance here is some things I might do, by either AA or just changing some mechanics outright.:
1. get rid of minimum range

2. Make 'Focus Aim' an activated temp buff that starts refreshing after use instead of a maintained/toggle.

3. Go over all current ranged CA's lowering their base cast time to be in line with other melee CA's. Possibly lowering their reuse and increasing damage as well to make rangers more 'rangery.'

4. Max HP debuff or similarly powerful/desired debuff. A debuff to be sure since they benefit the entire raid. A true raid wide buff would be more of a 'utility' class thing and a group buff would be lacking or again bordering on utility class level usefulness. More generally, something with universal appeal matching that of a max HP debuff.

5. Turn trick shot into a temporary hate xfer that applies immediately to what ever player the NPC is targeting (no mob hitting the player requirement)

6. Make it possible to cast ranged CA's while moving

I'm sure me or my fellow rangers can think of more annoyances we could do without.

Generally just smaller things. If we see a more complicated idea we like, it may end up working its way into the game eventually, but we're limited in how much time we can spend implementing changes for GU66 before we have to dive into a long to-do list for the next expansion.

I will keep that in mind as I make my response to the Fighter Feedback thread. All I can say from having once played an Assassin is that some Rear-Only skills are very difficult to land if a mob is on an incline. I have had Scouts /tell me that they can't get back attacks on Krelgrek High Chair if he on his ramp.

For brig strong arm needs an upgrade...shenanigans got a chance for a lvl 95 grand master and strongarm wasn't touched...where a lot of us choose to use strongarm over the other. Also swash have a ton of ae dps that we cant touch...which is fine because it's a ae class...but if we are the single target class of the rogues shouldn't we out put a substantial amount more dps on singpe target than a swash. I understand we have debuffs but many of our ca's are very picky on position and we don't have a reach like a swash so its harder to dps depending on the situations. Just a thought if swash is rogue ae specialist brig should have a bigger lead on single. We do beat swash on single but feel it should be more.

One thing that could be a nice addition is making the prestige's that gives cb to thieves guild just a normal thing for all brigs instead of a prestige's point would increases our dps. Swash has 5 temp buffs we have three so boosting tg for all brigs would be nice. If that became a norm for tg idk what you could put in the prestige's tree as an option instead. I know I'm going to be flamed over all of this.

To start out: Wish you guys would make the last 8 remaining classes all neutral on the PvE servers like they are on the PvP servers. I want to betray my swashbuckler to an evil city so I can do the evil-aligned quests and to follow one of the evil gods, while still remaining a swashbuckler...I don't want to be a brigand...and I want to be evil and not exile because of the shared bank reason...plus increasing my quest count. How did you guys manage to twist the lore enough on the PvP servers for evil rangers and good assassins, but swashbucklers and brigands are still not neutral classes? /boggle

Like a few others have mentioned regarding backstabs: turn them all into rear and flank. The swashbuckler's Viscerate only seems to work if you are dead center on the spine in the back of the mob, but Kidney Stab and Lung Puncture have a wider arc from behind/flank. Make Viscerate flankable and have the same arc as the other 2 backstabs we have.

Shanghai only works if the swashbuckler is in stealth, but Sneak just takes too long to cast to make using Shanghai worthwhile (for me, it's cast time is 1.33s). If I spent 5 points in the Swashbuckler AA tree, I'd get it down to 0.33s, but I'd rather spend those 5 points elsewhere. I take 1 point in the Rogue AA INT tree for Boot Dagger, and it's recast is 0.33s. Also, Boot Dagger requires you to be behind the mob to use it to put you into stealth so you can use Shanghai. Please remove that restriction and allow us to use it in any position, because Shanghai doesn't require you to be behind the mob to use it (you only have to be in stealth). One AA spent on Boot Dagger saves you from having to use 5 AA to reduce your cast time of Stealth.

The scout group runspeed ability Pathfinding is no longer useful, thanks to the wide variety of mounts and totems we have now.

The rogue ability to Smuggle the group is pretty much useless, because people can use totems. Group stealth is just really not needed these days. Even if it is used, scouts tend to run faster in stealth compared to other classes, so people are unable to keep up and stay in range and they are always breaking the stealth.
The rogue AA ability Walk the Plank works fine on heroic named mobs in CoE instance zones (advanced solo and group heroic), but it does not turn the named heroic mobs 180 degrees in the 2 CoE overland zones (EJ and OP). Cheap Shot only works long enough to maybe get one backstab in on these heroic named mobs, whereas I can get 2 or 3 of the swashbuckler backstabs in with Walk the Plank when the mob gets turned facing away from me in the instance zones. The description of the ability says "If Target is not Epic", yet it is not working on all "Heroic" mobs.

Hangman's Noose slows a target by 75.5% and decreases mit of target vs. arcane by 3302. Hamstring also slows a target by 75.2%, and does pretty sad melee damage and it could use a boost in the amount of damage it does compared to Flash of Steel and Kidney Stab. (All 3 of these abilities have really quick recast timers (less than 10s.))

Why do we even have the abilities Trick of the Hunter (level 20) or Dreadfang (level 35) anymore?

Hurricane at 100% vs 55% would nice...just like the Berserker's Whirlwind (from mythical weapon) being at 100%. Hey, a swashbuckler can dream, can't he? =P

++++++++++

Super ultra nitpicky things regarding the 3 "fun spells" that we got at levels 20, 40, and 50:

Swashbuckler's Charm (level 20): It's not as cool as the brigand's Clobber ability! You have to be grouped with people to use this ability on them, AND they have to be level 94 or below for it to work if you are level 95. If the other character is the same level you are, then it has no effect on them. The brigand's Clobber doesn't require that you are grouped with the person you want to whack, plus a level 95 brigand can use this ability on another level 95 character. (Don't change Clobber, just fix Swashbuckler's Charm.)

Disguise: Half Elf (level 40): Since my swashbuckler is a half elf, it's useless. If it gave me another random appearance for a half elf, that would be one thing, but your appearance doesn't change at all. It should have been a dark elf disguise at launch, especially since half elves are a neutral race.

Weapon Blur (level 50): You really cannot see anything going on like the description makes it sound. It just makes this sad little warpy appearance around your character's right hand/weapon area when you are not in combat.

I haven't found a spell pickier than dispatch....it can be very annoying to cast since it seems you have to be dead center. Yet taking away all positionals is a little too easy mode.

Swashbuckler:

For the most part I like where the class is atm. There are a couple tweeks that could refine the class a little more.

1. Merge En Garde with Swarthy Ways: The damage on the mythical buff has become very minimal at this point. Adding En Garde to the myth buff would bring it more in line with the rest of our abilities.

2. Storm of Steel: The only way this ability is useful is if you use the "work around" by double clicking it. Ranged auto attack does about 400% more damage than this ability, at master level, on a training dummy. This was probably more useful back when ranged auto attack didn't amount to much. For the simple fix, I'd suggest eliminating the Root/Daze/Stifle effects, eliminate the "steady stream" damage, and just make this another ranged ability similar to Arctic Blast. This change wouldn't change anything other than eliminating the need for the annoying second click.

3. Reforge for ability reuse: Without putting on mage, priest or fighter gear, we are limited to roughly low to mid 30 percent reuse. All other archetype classes are easily near or over 100%. With more reuse the right side spec in the Swashbuckler prestige tree might prove to be more viable. Can elaborate more about right side swash spec later on, if there is interest.

4. Coule: Rogue tree AA ability (Brig and Swash). I'd like to see the front / flanking changed to rear / flanking. In fencing, this maneuver is obviously from the front, however, they don't fight dragons or entities whose ae auto attack one shots them. Everything else about this ability is fine as is.

5. On PvE servers, I'd like to see Swashbuckler alignment set to neutral or allow worship of any deity regardless of alignment.

6. Allow crafted red poisons to crit and be modifiable by potency and critbonus. This would allow the poisons to grow along with the player.

If I could pick two 'smaller things' for each subclass that improved the fun factor of playing a scout...

Assassin-
1. Get rid of the recovery time on the Predator AA "Impenetrable" (also kind of ranger's #3!)
2. Make Massacre a pbaoe instead of a frontal.

Ranger-
1. Have the mythical buff also get rid of the minimum range on all combat arts/ranged auto attack, since the mythical itself had no minimum range.
2. Increase the range on the 5 meter CAs to 10.

Brigand-
1. Should get a debuff that un-brawlers brawler mobs.
2. Remove position requirements from front/flanking CAs, remove duration from Shadow Slip IV

Swashbuckler-
1. Storm of Steel should just become a multi-hit CA (like Flurry of Blades)
2. Remove position requirements from front/flanking CAs, remove duration from Shadow Slip IV

Beastlord-
1. Revamp Savage Howl (SF endline that has never been worth 1 point let alone 2/4 and lowers your dps drastically if you spec it and/or cast it) into an aoe that does minor damage but reduces threat position of everything. Or a single target instead of aoe. As long as it has minus hate positions.
2. Hit rates. Give the hit bonus to primals like all other CAs get, because suddenly fighting a brawler mob and having 4 of your 6 primals miss while all your other CAs are hitting 100% of the time is beyond annoyingly enraging. Not to mention the pet not being able to hit for **** because it doesn't share any melee stats whatsoever, most importantly crushing/slashing/piercing, accuracy.

Dirge-
1. Halve the casting and halve or remove the recovery on all encounter debuffs.
2. Make Echoing Power last 2 minutes instead of 24 seconds.

Troubador-
1. Halve the casting and halve or remove the recovery on all encounter debuffs.
2. Make Uplifting Uproar last 2 minutes instead of 24 seconds.

Dirge

• Harl's Rousing Tune buff spell needs WIS component to be on par with Troubador's Raxxyl's Rousing Tune.
  • Harl's Rousing Tune have STR, AGI and avoidance components
  • Raxxyl's Rousing Tune have AGI, WIS, INT and resist components
• The stat components of Dirge's Battle Cry are very obsolete at this point, compared to Troubador's Upbeat Tempo. It is easily obtainable to get Flurry and Multi-Attack through gears and adornments. The conversion rate for CB/Potency -> Multi-Attack obtained from Battle Cry is very low which is 0.5% increase (15 divided by 30).
  • Battle Cry components: 15% Multi-Attack, 8% Flurry (2 stats)
  • Upbeat Tempo components: 10% Reuse, 15% Casting, 25% Recovery, +1 ticks to combat arts and spells (4 stats)
  • Suggestion: Consider adding 10% Weapon Damage Bonus and 10% Reuse to Battle Cry, to be on par with Upbeat Tempo.
• Remove the immunity from Dirge's Gravitas. You removed the immunity for Troubador's Jester's Cap which is more powerful than Gravitas, so why not?
• Consider adding damage component to Hymn of Horror so that the spell is more useful and cast often. If you do add the damage component though, casting time should be 0.5 seconds instead of instant.

Bard AA Tree

• Improved Reflexes (the endline from Strength line): Due to the fact that there are reuse stats on items that are scout equip-able, this enhancement needs to have 1 second duration to each rank added. I have 37% Ability Reuse and 54% Spell Reuse so Bladedance is already capped at 5 minutes without any point into enhancement.

Bard Heroic Tree

• Songspinner's Note: The components of this spell are very obsolete. The damage needs to be beefed up to be on par with Deadly Dance and Cadence of Destruction, of which are used by many bards today.

Although, I haven't been played the swash long, however I have noticed one problem with the Swashbuckler prestige. I did feedback it earlier and am pointing it out again.

Pirate's Perception- the prestige ability that grants a damage proc to the group by 1 for each deathblow dealt has a cancellation problem. In the text it says that when a member dies the triggers will reset to 0. Although, I find this part of the ability really annoying, I think that it shouldn't reset to 0, knowing that other classes with a similar ability do not have this in their requirements anymore, i.e guardians, Champion's Interception. The largest issue with this ability however, is that it cancels whenever a person drops from the group or raid. This should not happen.

Aside from that at the moment I cannot think of a fix or change.

Why even make this thread? Should have just PM'd Buffrat.

He covered most of the bases tbh.

General
-Two things are killing the desirability of scouts from a raiding perspective:

Raid mobs with unavoidable AoEs (I'm not talking red-scripted AoEs) They need to go away forever. Making hard-mode encounters that keep melee scouts basically out of the fight (whether it's meant to or not) for fear of getting one-shot is both ridiculous and game-killing. Why even bring scouts that cant get in and play??

Utility class necessity This hurts Scouts a lot too. 4 bards/4chanters is pretty standard in most raids and cripples the usefulness of others, and it seems combined with the previous issue there is no reason to run more than 2 or 3 melee scouts in a raid.

-All KoS (subclass) tree skills need to have their damage/usefulness increased. There is plenty of feedback for this.
-Deities need to be more balanced, worth more, and easier to gain/maintain. There are only a handful that are ever worth choosing outside of a role playing perspective.
-Scout poison needs to be either revamped or removed. The damage is okay, but the debuffs are ridiculously aged.
-All new Prestiges that give stacking buffs but are canceled when someone (or their pet) dies need to be revamped.
-We need a fix for the Maintained/Effects windows. Especially for tracking the new incremental skills that require you to have X amount of stacks to maximize their effect. No idea why this wasn't fixed when they were implemented.

Brigand
-Crazy idea involving the scout positional attacks: In offensive stance, make them all rear/flanking, and in defensive all frontal. That way we could tank if we wanted to (like we were meant to). Also seconding all Frontal attacks act the same way.
-Shenanigans could act just like Strongarm damage-wise, but the rescue portion remain the same. Shenanigans as-is is a joke and you rarely ever get the damage from it unless you are playing solo.
-Prestige Mercy or Anger is simply not good. I like the idea of a transfer, but couldn't we get it on something with a shorter recast? And then get a reset for something useful (like Double Up resetting Cornered!)
-Prestige end line Exacting Venom doesn't do hardly any damage. It's called a Prestige Mastery, it should act like one.
-Rogue roles need to be more defined. Brigands should have a more noticeable effect on defensive debuffing, Swashies offensive debuffs should be more crippling. This would make them both way more desirable and fun to play.

Strictly in that sense:

Minimum range is easily one of the most if not THE biggest offender when it comes to making rangers hard to enjoy and tedious. I would happily hang my hat on this change even if ranger's only got one change.

Melee CA's with typical scout melee range and ranged CA's with poor reuse and casting times also contribute to this. As it stands rangers are not a melee class or a ranged class, they are a '2-5 meters' class. Since making a 7th melee scout class when we have rangers would be silly, it only makes sense rangers be more ranged.

I like everything that Tekadeo has brought up in his post about scouts/rogues, especially this concept...it should have been thought of long ago (or if it has been brought up before, put it into place now):