Your Class and Breaking the "Decent to Great" Barrier

Necro here, just to state the obvious. I'm not incredibly well versed in many classes, I like to think I'm pretty knowledgeable about what they can do, but not that I could do it myself just being handed a character. I'm curious how difficult it is for various classes to break away from being average, and really start to rock. Referring to top end such as raiding, so if you answer in group content context, I'd love to hear it still, just say its group level please so I don't confuse myself.

From my experience as a necro, its fairly difficult to get someone over that hump from having a single spell line up, pet attack, a dot or two, then swifts. It really throws them for a loop to go from 12 spells max, to 15-20. Its mostly the huge change in routine from group play to raid play I think. Many things don't carry over, and timing is much more important. Once they get it however, there is typically no going back. They have it or they don't.

To further the point here, using completely arbitrary numbers, I see some classes on a scale more like 100% dps for the super pro, then a decent guy might be 80%, a brand new guy might be 50%, etc. On open raids I do from time to time, necro seems to be more like top guys 100%, 99%, 90%, then a huge gap between them down to like 30-40% or worse! So it seems the main problem is there are no "average" necros in the same sense other class may have an average guy. Also I've seen it enough to think it isn't just one or two bad dudes.

Please enlighten me on your own class, as far as difficulty in getting someone into the 80% or higher of the best guy range. Doing 20% more than someone is huge, but you can still use them. Its hard to use someone if they are doing 30% of your best guys. And Melees? I have no idea how you work, please help me learn, in a general sense.

Yes, necro have one of the steepest learning curve of all the DPS classes, mostly because you have to rotate 20ish dot on a boss... usually. If there's 2 bosses at once the rotation change, if there's add the rotation change, if you must slow DPS (cause %-based add are coming.. tita's ghost per exemple) then you have to think in advance... It is by far the most complex dps out there, and it vary from bosses to bosses.

you'll also face several other problems: the necro 'club' is the most secret one out there; necros don't like to share stuff.

There's a limit on how many necro you can fit in a raid ( 3 or 4) due to the amount of DoT you can stack on a boss; top guild generally have those spot filled and unless you're already a kickass necro... g'luck getting in one.

In a mid-tier guild you may face another lovely problem: other people are filling the raid boss with crappy DoT ( rangers dot, beastlord dot, pyromancy procs or the lovely sympathethic pulse of XXX proc augs...) wich means you cannot reapply your DoT when you want to ... completly screwing your rotation... and you cannot pratice/experiment your 20-dots rotation.

However there's some positive stuff... as a caster you'll usually end up (or should end up) in a necro-only group ( necro + ench + druid + bard); coordinating cooldown is alot easier when you only have to care about 1 class (unlike a melee group where rog-zerker-rng-monk-bst have different timers). you don't depend on aDPS as much as the melee group and only tanks/enchanters are more durable than you ( and you don't put yourself in harm's way like they do).

Despite all of that, if you do master the necro class you'll completly own everyonelse on anything over 5 minute yet still burn for 250k+ on 2min stuff. As you are aware, the skill-ceilling for a necro is very high... there's only a handfull of top-necro serverwide ; most people don't even realize how strong necro can be in a raid-setting because they never played with a great necro (unlike wizards, who can pull 90% of their potential by spamming 2 macro).

from what i've seen in a mid-tier guild ( Pain and Glory on Vox) the worst wizard would do 70%ish of what the top-wizard would do however , Crimson tempest necros can pull 4 time the damage of PnG average necro.

beastlords are a pita to pass the good to great gap but well worth it in the end =)

Lotsa bottom tiers just do not have the reaction time necessary to adjust their strategy as events and fights play out. I think that is the biggest thing holding them back.

Muscle memory just takes doing the same thing a few times to get past that but yeah i agree events still change a lot after doing them 100+ times so people need flexability

For clerics I think going from decent to great, or exceptional, can be a bit difficult. Well, relatively difficult. It's a game, and let's not kid ourselves - nothing about it is difficult. A good part of this I think is because it's not always obvious or overt how one is performing. It's not like, say, DPS where one could look at a parse and get a good measure for the most part of they are performing relative to their peers. Granted, we have heal parses, but they have limitations and nuances to them. Cast logs are better, but even then not perfect. And then there are all the non-parseable intangibles which are really what makes great clerics great (really goes for any player) such as reaction time, the ability to triage the situation and do what is the most needed / best course of action at the given moment, react to changing conditions on the ground, communicate and coordinate actions with your heal team / raid, being optimal in your actions, utilizing all your tools and using the right tool for the right job, and above all focusing on the raid as a whole, not simply a collection of groups, and certainly not just your group.

Another barrier I find is that clerics (as a collective group, in the game as a whole) just don't quite have that same drive to perform at peak ability as other classes do. Others may certainly have experienced something different, but that's just what I have come across in my playing of the game. Show a DPS class something they can do to get more DPS and most will be all over it. Some will be quite excited to parse it out. Show tanks something they can do to decreases the dmg they take or mitigate it better, and they're going to tend to do it. And I just don't see that drive or enthusiasm with clerics (again, talking about class as a whole across the game, lots of individual exceptions). Part of that, again, may be the nature of metrics. Its easy to tell a DPS class "Look at your numbers, then look at what the best numbers are for your class, let's talk about what you could be doing similarly to improve your DPS." Now certainly not everyone is going to take that offer up, but I find most will have at least some interest. In contrast I've run into no shortage of clerics who are more than content to simply cast Light, maybe a Remedy, maybe throw a AA now and then, but not do much really beyond that - and will adamantly refuse to change. Not even just stubbornness, but they are even offended that anyone "dare tells them how to heal." Any player who is unwilling to evaluate their own performance and not enter into dialogue with their peers of what they can do better individually and as a team (and we all can), is never going to be a great player. I think clerics just maybe have a few more of them our ranks.

As for what the difference is between simply being decent versus being great or exceptional, I think the big thing is their approach to raiding:

Good clerics heal their group, as a single person.
Great clerics keep their raid alive, as part of a team.

Notice the that I didn't say great clerics "heal their raid." That wording is deliberate. Keeping the raid alive and winning events is more than just healing (though healing is certainly the bulk of it).

Part of it means preventing damage from even occurring, or lessening it's impact. It can mean in game stuff like cures, wards, dmg mitigation buffs, all sorts of things. But it also means lots of communication. Things that you, the player behind the keyboard not your character, do. A good cleric may heal, or rez if needed, a player who is meleeing through a damage shield. A great healer would know the event and would have reminded melee about the DS and to not fight through it. Yes, that's the raid leader's job, but that doesn't mean it isn't also your job as a healer as well. That could mean mentioning things like dmg shields, auras, cures, range of AoE's, avoidable dmg mechanics, emotes, positioning, etc. Anything that is a threat to the raid is what a great player would address. Even DPS burn time, I'd argue, is indirectly a healer concern. What is the most dangerous portion of the event that you want to burn through as fast as you can? Help the raid leader out (if they want, otherwise, well, guess you can just heal harder or something).

Communication is another big area where you see skill gaps between decent and great players. Here again it's that difference of seeing yourself as part of a team, rather than functioning as an individual. And also looking at the raid as a whole. Who is healing whom? Are all the tanks covered? Are you calling DI's, rezs, divine rezs, HoT's, cures, spires, etc to make sure you're not wasting them or overwriting them? Are you communicating with tanks when discs are dropping and they need additional heals? MGB HoT / EB order? When? Mass issuance shield use? When? Who's doing the pre-start TB of a HoT? Are you communicating with group members to make sure they are in range of heals / auras, etc? If it isn't inherently obvious, do they let you know if they need cures? Is FV doing something stupid and about to wipe the raid? Communicating DA use on her and having tank pull mobs off her? The list could go on extensively. Substitute the things mentioned with other class specific examples and you could give this answer for any class for what makes a great player great.

And lastly its doing what is best for the raid at any given moment, not just thinking of your group, and being aware of what is going on around you. Triage the situation. Lot of otherwise decent clerics tend to kinda just focus on their group and not really pay attention to the event around them or the raid as a whole. This means paying close attention to your ETW and healing off tanks / CC / other critical personal you placed there. It could mean preventing a raid wipe by saving FV. Saving and using Divine Rezs for other healers. Rezing and buffing other members - but at the same time knowing when not to because if you stop healing the MT / OT at a critical moment their death will do much more harm then a non-rezed player. Or even just paying attention to event mechanics and knowing when people need extra support - that person who you just got summoned to the named on Arx 3 and is running back to the raid is taking heavy dot dmg and has a heal debuff on them to make it even worse - help them out.

And then there is all the other actual healing stuff, cures, AA's, etc etc. The obvious stuff. It's utilization of it all, and all the intangibles and big picture thinking that makes decent players great.

This too certainly. Which is the same reason mid-bottom tier guilds struggle with new content: it's new, and everything requires adjustment.

The progression goes like this:
suck
decent
good
great
Holy Crap
Known on other servers
Legend
hmm does it go higher?
lol
Where do you fall?

suck
decent
good
great
Holy Crap
Known on other servers
Legend
Known on other games
People take your name on servers
Can't even get your name on other games anymore
People give you top of the line computer hardware so that you can box more
People send you tells saying they took your name even back in star wars galaxy and they got so many tells asking if it was you that they had to stop playing the character to enjoy the game.
You made an alt, and didn't tell anyone it was you, and the alt is legend status.
So great no one cares anymore, and they feel like they're entitled to it.
People rejoin everquest because you play it, and when they see you're too busy to play with them more than twice a week, they quit it again.
you get invited to las vegas retreat (not everquest related, but because of who you were in everquest).
Final step: you fly into the sun, and are dead. Ultimate legend (the sun also dies).


As far as the OP goes, I think a lot of the knowledge you can get about the game as a whole like targetting abilities, how to make and utilize good hotkeys, how to cast spells efficiently, and a desire to be good make up about 90% of what it takes to become good with most classes. I guess enchanter would be a mixed bag depending on if you're dps'ing or actually doing CC. To really know it all with the class takes a lot more experience that is rare to get nowadays than other classes. Back when charm was great, I'd say it was one of the harder to get to ceilings, but also one of the highest ones.

Enchanters are another class that's usually recognized as one that has a super steep learning curve.

I think there are a few primary reasons for this:

1. The cheezy "there is no *right* way to play an Enchanter. There are a bazillion different ways to accomplish the same thing as an Enchanter. Unfortunately, many are far less efficient but when you try and tell someone this it's hard to process because "well, it's getting the job done so why change?".

2. Inter-class animosity. Enchanters are the antithesis of necro club. They can't keep their mouth shut and in-fighting is rampant. The class is self sabotaging. This is partially due to point #1 since there are so many ways to do things.

3. No other game (to my knowledge) has much comparable to EQ's Enchanter and so conceptually, it's very foreign to players just starting out.

4. Lack of situational awareness. Someone mentioned this above but it's really critical for Enchanters. Some people will have their set spell lineup and just never bother to switch in and out midfight or whatever. If you've been DPSing the whole time but then your tank is getting slammed on a named... maybe you should Rune? But maybe not... there are lots of judgement calls but many people are just too lazy to bother making any.

5. Lack of communication [raiding]. As much as Enchanters like to run their mouths they seem to shut up during times that it actually matters. I've been around for a long time and through many guilds over the years. It doesn't appear to be an isolated incident... finding a solid Enchanter crew who can work well together and communicate is like finding buried treasure in the Marianas trench. This likely goes back to #1.

So how does one get into the top tier of Enchanterness [OP original question]? No clue! I've seen people who have played Ench 10+ years who just flat out suck and those who have played 1 - 2 years who are awesome; and vice versa. Since it's difficult to "parse" an Enchanter it has a compounding effect. I have to mine through spell count and DPS data for each raid event and then try and determine wtf was going on throughout the event to only then make an assumption that Player XYZ maybe should have been doing ABC. Even then... good luck.

Some people just get it. A lot don't. Given the Enchanter is a CC/support class you really have to be familiar with a lot of other classes abilities in order to appropriately play at max efficiency.

My 2 cp. I'm sure many Ench would disagree [see point #1!].

Beastlord power !! Kobrah is that bottom tier though no doubt /nod

Pretty much agree with Silv

Thanks!

ps. Log in so I can send you a tell OMG.

I second what Tour wrote, especially the part about lots of clerics not wanting to change.

Short answer on what it takes to be exceptional: Hunger, the kind that keeps you up too late on a work night, searching the net for things to make you better.

Difficulty of being an exceptional cleric: I don't consider myself exceptional, however, wherever I am on that scale was easy for me, simply because I have a hunger for learning everything I can from other clerics, even if I don't agree with them, I try what they are doing anyway.

All classes have a steep learning curve.

Pick any class, it's easy to be 'good'.
It's very hard to be 'great'.

And I have a cleric in guild with Tour. I'd likely rank her as 'good'. I have alot of work to do.

Awesome perspectives from several classes here. Enchanter didn't pop into mind at first, but that has to be a bit tricky to learn past the basic for lack of a better term "bot skill" I mean the things you would use the class for if it was pretty much just an alt to your group. For necro it would be like swift dots, cleric might just be a multi bind heal, etc etc. I would like to hear some mellow and tank side if anyone knows though, I'm clueless to those non dress wearing types.

I have had the joy (as a lot here have) to raid at a very high level on a decent cross section of Toons

Warrior (Velious - TSS)

Enchanter (Pop - OOW)

Wizard (TSS - SoD)

For me the #1 thing that makes the jump from an avg player to the ones that shine...is simply paying attention and as Coronay mentioned, reaction time.

I have seen focused Toons with 2-3 xpac old gear & AAs completely match or exceed lazy/unmotivated ones. When that 'old' guy/girl gets gear to match their ability....things take off in unbelievable fashion!

No, your mostly right. I feel that your just missing one major point.
#6) BAC of less that 0.001%

To the OP, Enchanters have the most(or are top 3) possible ways to assist. Last i counted there was at least 30 distinct ways. As silv pointed out some are 'inefficient' but it all boils down to situation awareness, reaction time, and ability to predict what the raid needs 6 seconds from now.

I'm a bit surprised Sandaormo didn't go into warriors, but here's my take.

For warriors, I think tanking is interesting because you have this one bump that is probably the sharpest out of everything for the class and hit many people a bit too early to be fair, which is tanking raid mobs. Most people will just mess up the first few times they tank raid mobs, and the stress on that person can be huge. Especially because generally people will roll a new warrior BECAUSE YOU NEED WARRIORS! It's a lot better when you have enough other warriors that they can just fail and it's ok. The one time I remember helping out a warrior when we didn't have enough, they were on the verge of quitting after trying to tank 2 mobs. It can be very stressful. If you devote some time to aa and gear up a dps class and it goes badly, who cares right? They still can deal some damage. With a tank it is something that you NEED to work to win raids, and there is a pass or fail point to it. If you can't make it, then you feel like a failure as a tank, and it usually takes tanking 3-4 mobs if you have good advice to get past that point. Most people will mess up their fortitude and/or flash on a single mob the first few times from my experience. A few were unable to get mob aggro on those first attempts, and then mess up fort/flash. Past that, they are usually alright, but would forget to re add defensive proficiency after last stand fades, and then take way too much damage if tanking adds later in the fight. It seems like a different sort of slope because these end up being things that you have to realize need to be done, but you'll still manage to fail them. I see it every time.

Having good reaction time is very nice for a warrior, but also having situational awareness is more important than it is for many other classes. If an add comes and a warrior doesn't realize it, it's a lot worse than say a wizard not realizing that there is an add immediately in most cases. Past that point, being a good warrior is pretty similar to other classes in that you need to know how things stack, and the best way to use discs/aa's/items to tank well.

In groups, the warrior curve is more or less about learning what you can deal with when nttb is up, switching between defensive and 2h proficiency buffs appropriately (if dps'ing makes sense in the group you are in), knowing when to pull multiples, knowing when not to, using the right discs (if it's trivial content, evasive is nice because the mobs will miss you more, taking fewer counters off of nttb, but last stand is still stronger.. if the content is less trivial, last stand could make the difference between dying or not when pulling multiples). I feel like the class has more variation now than it used to. In groups it is a good class.

Oops! I think you added an extra decimal place.