Wow, just instance the planes already

I am just a player with no guild affiliations currently and play daily to some degree. This game was released back in 99, and only had Nag and Vox really. People knew in order to defeat the dragons they would need to either join a guild or create a guild because that is the true nature of raids.

Sure, over time this game has gotten easier and easier but the raids are made for raiding guilds. Its why everytime a expansion came out they listed raid zones and group content. If folks want to raid whats on the rotation then they should take the time, organization and create something that allows for fairness in those raids for all who attend. Right now, as it stands, I would be pretty sure that a group of six could go up and clear island one...its not that hard. Island 2(Azaracks) I am not so sure unless they are a group of twinks.

Hell, even Holly said these mobs are supposed to be for raiding guilds.

Here is a problem..... TRAIN!!! Gore to KC!!!

The Kunark dragons are in outdoor zones, pathing around and buffed, we don't know how much.

I don't remember there being rotations for Kunark dragons when they were current content but most of the raiding I did in the very early days was Velious on AB when it launched.

Killing these dragons fast is necessary for the rest of the server.

Buffed Severilous is going to be up 50% of the time in Emerald Jungle rather than a few hours per week
Buffed Gore is going to be up 50% of the time in Dreadlands rather than a few hours per week
Buffed Talendor is going to be up 50% of the time in Skyfire rather than a few hours per week

That is an issue for the lv30+ lv40+ and lv50+ crowd

Ring of Scale faction is really easy to destroy killing wurms in Burning Woods, and anything at all in Skyfire.
Killing wurms is viable exp lv33+ especially if Burning Woods still has an exp bonus.

or better yet open raid becomes <Open Raid> and has there day on the current set rotation and agrees to follow the rules of set rotation. opening up FFA days is essentially this now that croak is in talks with the rotation. DBG enforced rotation this is now the rule. like or leave it. people keep saying eq is not this model andf WOW is etc ... well eq TLP is now this model. I agree with some of your points zhutuak; but also see how much work and compromise by the heavy hitter guilds has gone into trying to make everything fair. the fact that the rotation agreement is always open to modification illustrates this perfectly (albeit it sounds painfully hard to do). there will be no prefect solution for everyone. Thus if everyone compromises with our current situation the rotation (including an open raid slot) is the best option. if <open raid> wants to join the rotation they have to do it the same way all the other guilds did. kill your qualifier and work your way up. infringing on someone elses timeslot (unless approved by that guilds day) creates a violation of the current agreement. work within your rules and talk with the guild/rotation leaders IN GAME about your current objectives and you will be surprised how open to sharing the rotation guilds can be.

both sides of this argument have valid points. surely with compromise both sides of the argument can be satisified.

I would guess that many rotation members have already thought some about this. I know I have. Right now, Kunark is three months away, and rotation aspects of Kunark will be discussed before it opens. Kunark has many unique aspects: outdoor dragons (as you mentioned), an end zone (VP) that requires keying (through Trakanon), and perhaps some others that aren't popping into mind right at this moment. But it is three months away, so we're not actively worrying about it yet -- the Classic rotation is still a source of enough concerns that talking about Kunark would be getting ahead of ourselves.

When an expansion opens, there should be NO rotation. No guild or entity has proven themselves at that point and it should be totally FFA for the first 2 months of the expansion.
With 6 months approximately per expansion, first 2 months should be FFA, second 2 months should be on rotation for guilds qualifying and the final 2 months should be open to all with Free days in the rotation for unguilded groups to attempt content. Example every Wednesday any raid mob that spawns will not be touched by rotation guilds, and others can attempt that mob.

Except again you are forcing me and others to play the way you feel is the right way to play. I am not interested in being guilded, unless there is a higher purpose behind it,like alpha testing a new form of government.

So while an open raid lead by me or anyone else can still work within the parameters that are already set up and in place, I am simply promoting another option. One that does not require anyone to ask anyone else permission to do group content.

Whether Holly or anyone else says Sky is raid content, the fact of the matter is it is group-able. Once again to say Sky is totally raid and rotate the whole yet not do that to fear and hate is hypocritical at best.

Once again my suggestion only leaves open the group-able content as ffa content (as it should be) in sky up to and including the keeper of souls. Yael is not on rotation but is a qualifier mobs, why is everything in Sky up until KoS on rotation?

Because those making the decisions are trying to preserve as much for themselves as they can, while they can. The idea I am proposing would mesh ffa and rotation to where no one is impinging upon another because you know, I have gone to sky to kill group-able content only to get harassed by a rotation guild doing things that are against the eula. One that is self professed pnp no less.

I'm not sure that anybody thinks that it should be rotated from launch. Someone might, but that would arbitrarily slow down the next release to a major extent, and it would cause VP to be empty for a month or more. No, I was just saying "what happens when it does go to a rotation," because it will. Leaving Naggy up for 20 hours is not equivalent to leaving Gore up for 20 hours, as you kinda have to go out of your way to get Naggy, but anybody running from the DL port-in could accidentally run into Gore.

I think Kunark should be FFA from launch, and then rotated after a while, but I'm not sure what timeframe I support.

I know she said something to the effect that casuals should not get dragons or some such, I am not familiar with her saying that the first four sky isle bosses should only be for raiding guilds. Link?

This being said, it is ridiculous to even consider if this content can be downed by a single group. Mobs such as epic npcs are considered raid targets by dbg, con them. I can box many of them, are you going to rotate them too?

The problem is DBG is asking the community to come up with a rotation of targets.
The problem there in lies
1. Impossible to allow everyone to have a voice
2. Restrictions imposed by other players should not affect the gaming experience for others
3. Rotation is agreement amongst players - its a agreed Play nice Policy between the parties involved. If you do not want to be involved with the Rotation you should have the right to say so and play as you choose.
4. Is this forced rotation policy in affect in any other servers or just TLP?
5. Was it enforced during classic? Kunark? Velios?

1. Use the polling system, explain what is being voted upon, why an how it affects everyone. Give the proposals as choices to vote on. Everyone should have a say because this content is really not that hard, most everyone could experience it if they chose to.
2. Agreed but is currently happening w/ the enforced rotation.
3. Could not agree more, I see the rotation as an agreement between guilds to keep each other from slitting each others throats.
4. They did away w/ pnp on all servers I believe. The only form of pnp currently in play on any server is the enforced rotations.
5. There was no need, there was already a pnp across the board. Essentially it was first to engage, guilds were able to work things out themselves, there were no single player mage armies holding the server hostage.

Why did our thread about Plane of Sky and unguilded access get merged with an instance all the planes thread? Definitely not the same subject.

Just another indication of how detached the company is with it's customers.

It was sometimes first to engage, sometimes first in force. This became a HUGE issue on Fippy, where it generally turned into First in Force. Which devolved, in some cases, into the boss dieing and then people /afk'ing at that spot for 3 days so they could claim they were first in force.

That's why the PnP was changed to "DPS race." The system already identifies which raid won the DPS race, as that's who gets experience and the loot window. There's not enough CS to adjudicate all the first-in-force vs. first-to-engage arguments, so they just got rid of it.

They will probably never instance the planes but would be cool as my playtime is limited and i would be able to do them when i could not when someone told me i could as for kunark i would like to see vp instanced also. Me competing for mobs and rotations just aint in my schedule. Whatever way it goes down instance or not i will do what i can /shrug

It totally thew me as well for a while until I looked at my posting history and realized something had been merged.
Technically I believe there had been calls for making PoSky instanced within the more unguilded discussion.

Where this breaks down is that the issue regarding PoSky on Lockjaw is really Lockjaw specific, and merging the threads not only confuses people not interested in anything to do with Lockjaw who might have subscribed to the instancing post, but also means that anyone who subscribed to the PoSky post might now be receiving unwanted subscriptions to discussions on instancing on both servers.

If I put my work hat on, I would be advising my client that merging threads in a discussion forum that way could be really harmful to email deliverability as users are prone to hit "spam" if they see something that they were not expecting.

But basically a form of it is now taking place in the form of forced rotations. On LJ, you had already come to the conclusion that it was the way to go. This is something we can police ourselves, the server and raiding guilds have already proven they can.

This is just an extension of that to more of the player base on content that can be done with a single group.

Yes, a rotation is a form of PnP. But what would you propose for 1-4? You don't want a rotation for it, so it needs to be something clearly defined that can be policed (like the rotation is).

Simple, the isle 1-4 is ffa for the entire server including whoever has that day on rotation. if the rotation guild wants every single spawn, get in there and kill them, if not there is a possibility that any group could come along and enjoy the content too.

If a group(s) is locking down the content, they can be banned or suspended, depending on a case by case basis. I can not tell you exactly what will be needed because I do not know exactly how it will play out.

Since it is really not the rotation itself but the threat of bans and suspensions that keeps all of the proposed could be issues at bay now, something tells me there is a solution here that works for everyone.

You have yet to explain under what premise those individuals locking down the content could be punished.

How about terminal greed, overweening pride, or just plain patheticness?