Wizard Love

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Mazame, Feb 12, 2021.

  1. Jumbur Improved Familiar

    To me, it looks like wizards are not that bad(but not good either), IF the raidstrat is aimed towards AE-usage. In my guild we usually follow an MA and kill the mobs sequentially, rather than pile up all the adds.

    I still think our single-target dps is too low though. :(
  2. Badname3245 Journeyman

    I don't want to trigger anyone but sadly the overwhelming majority of eq folks believe this or that having played a class for 27 years means they play it well. The devs are flooded with info coming from places like this where people individually leave 20, 30, 40% or more performance on the table on their own and then make unfair comparisons and claims about the state of things.

    Hopefully wizards get the boosts they need to be more competitive again. I must be new here for saying this but hopefully we don't yet again shoot past the moon because the devs bought into the flood of nonsense that drowns out the factual info. And that they don't each then individually try correct for it. So wizard nukes get doubled in base damage while at the same time 10 different nuke AAs lines get doubled in effectiveness with some cool new wizard only weapon appearing that tacks on even more "help" all it once.
  3. Kelset Elder

    What I can't wrap my head around is how indicative of wizard status Kizant being 8th is. I assume the 7 above him are top players of their respective classes like he is. So what does that tell us about Wizards? Are their any other Wizards in that same range or are his parses anomalies due to how well he plays? I'm not a raider and in a guild of only a few people so have no frame of reference.

    Just curious and enjoying the conversation while we wait for the Devs to engage.
  4. kizant Augur

    I agree with Pie on this one. The DPS represents what I would do with X number of targets to damage. It doesn't matter whether they're important or useless on this particular event. Next year we may see an event where a similar number of adds are up at all times and are important to kill.

    And like I mentioned a few posts ago. My decision on which AE to use is solely based on the number of primal guardians. If I have Tantor + 1 guardian I'll use beam. If I have + 2 guardians I'll use combustion. If I have + 3 guardians I'll use splash. Or at least I consider using them in those situations. I may not bother at +2 but I do like the mana preservation of combustion so I sometimes use it when it's not the best option.
    Kelset and Sancus like this.
  5. kizant Augur

    Wizards are pretty decent at sustained DPS when we have a couple targets to AE. That's really what the Tantor parse shows. On a single target burn we fall behind way too many classes and that's what I usually focus on discussing. And if I didn't AE on an event like Tantor obviously I'd fall behind a few spots at a minimum. Lots of raids don't allow AEs or the Wizards just dont use them so that may explain why most people think things are worse than they may really be.

    However, the game does change a lot and you have to keep up with those changes. The way someone played during RoF is very different than today and I generally make changes every year or even more often.
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  6. Badname3245 Journeyman

    In my opinion you can't tune a game around whats indicative, if people refuse to adapt or change thats on them. You tune around whats possible. I would venture a guess and say that 95% of wizards cast how they cast based on how they played 2, 3 or even 10 years ago. And don't adapt much on the fly at all. They cast the same every single event or they make a small change for an event when they first encounter it and thats their play for a yr even if the dynamic of what they should cast varies minute by minute. Even less adapted to melee for the proc gains from items, augs and enc, druid, bard buffs when melee procs are just free mini nukes impacted by lots of things wizards already do.

  7. Scornfire The Nimbus Prince

    For reference,

    Silent Redemption routinely has multiple Wizards in the top 10 on some events and sometimes one in the top 5. SR has probably the best ADPS make-up of any of the top Guilds at the moment with regards to caster groups, each gets a bard pretty well every week (outside of the events I swap to cleric etc) and we have 3-4 enchanters so double IoG is not unheard of though I can see a few events where they've hit 5th without 2 enchanters

    Like Kizant said, Burns are the biggest sore point. I as a Necro have not really felt threatened by a wizard in probably the last 5-6 years or more (not all of those against the current level of competition/ADPS equilibrium we currently enjoy) even on short burns, so, yikes.

    Edit: For additional Clarity, when I'm playing my bard in caster groups that also means there's 1 less Necro hogging the top of the parse
  8. Cimbaeth Elder

    Gear on magelo mostly just shows how clever you are at switching around augs for a magelo sync. That being said, the wiz in the number 2 slot is usually 4th for wizards (out of 5) on parses, mostly because he's usually in a group with no adps. The other wizards don't even update magelo. So that shows you how accurate that is. Yes, most raids we aren't allowed to AE and just follow the MA, The only raids in the past at least 5 expansions that I've been able to hit number one on parse were raids that I was allowed to AE, which makes sense, as I think wizards were originally envisioned to be an AE (with support) class- as anyone that's done old school AE groups in Fungus Grove or Sebilis can appreciate.
    If I sound combatative or bombastic on here it's mostly just my personality- I mean- it fits why I play a wizard haha. My wife is a scientist and a literal genius so my main argument strategy with her is for me to say a bunch of wrong things until she finally explains why I'm wrong. This worked here too, I got a lot of suggestions and stuff I am going to switch up a bit.
    Still like Kizant says above, wizards have been lacking in the single target department for a long time. Depending on Alliance or a very specific ADPS line up to be competitive seems extremely limiting to me. If according to Kizant and others, I now have to spam claws and vortex 5x more than I have been, loaded up with my 12 procs and a vicious rabbit then /shrug I guess I'll try it.
    kizant likes this.
  9. Kelset Elder

    Thanks and makes sense on the AE.

    Agreed. However, in the case of a top player in a top guild who's built his own dps analysis tools, the gap between possible and probable is more than likely going to be smaller than even other above average players. That's why I was asking specifically about Kizant and how others wizards do in the same parse. Agree with your overall statement on tuning and adapting tactics though. Unfortunately, I probably stick to the same tactics longer than I should since I box multiple wizards and maximizing multiple multi-binds gets away from me sometimes. Fortunately, I have a few tweaks to make after the last couple pages of this thread.
    kizant and Cimbaeth like this.
  10. Cragzop Cranky Wizard

    This and other posts from (mostly) non-wizards are victim blaming bs. 95% percent of wizards cast how they did 2 years ago ... where in the hell did this number come from? Fantasy land? Hell, some days it feels like 95% of wizards that played two years ago have retired or been mothballed.

    I'd venture to say a solid percentage of ALL players don't change or change slowly their lineups on a year-to-year basis. It's nothing special with wizards. Most players just plug in the new spells for each level gain and go. All competitive guilds that I'm aware keep expansion-updated best practices for each class and I'd venture to say most follow the changes ... and if they don't, they better be still performing, regardless of class. This is nothing new and will continue to be nothing new.

    Meleeing for ALL caster/priest types is something that ALL of those classes need to do. It's not a wizard problem ... it's a caster/priest issue. Cannot speak for other guilds, but I know in MS the wizards more consistently melee than any of the other c/p classes on raids.

    Can wizards play better? Sure. Can every single class in EQ play better? Yes. Stop being dense.
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  11. Badname3245 Journeyman

    For years he has posted videos showing exactly what he does, debates the what why and how with anyone who wants and constantly offers help to anyone who wants it. Not everyone will clone his play 100% but they can mirror to the best of their ability very easily. However it comes down to most not caring enough to be bothered. They would rather claim they are 4 times behind every other dps class while playing exactly as they did in TBM.

    We all get your not happy with wizard tuning but the reality of where wizards are verse most of the claims not from you, Kizant and a handful of others is massive.

    Clearly stated it was my opinion and a guess but its based on what I have seen and heard for years now. It applies to all classes but not every classes play changed as much or has fallen out of line with "whats acceptable" compared to peers, outside of 1-2 over tuned dps classes. Outside of the top 2-3 guilds the sentiment is wizards are awful and drastically behind everyone and thats not the case unless you accept mailed in - I'm not adapting my play as the baseline on top of the tuning gap. Its not dense its reality.
  12. Kelset Elder

    I had a little trouble parsing this so apologies if I'm mischaracterizing what you said but no one is suggesting that we tune based on sub-par play. Wizards also have some core players that are more data-driven so it's not conjecture or opinion from what I've read. The debate is really around what to change to get the wizard class back to it's core function versus whether it needs to be done or not. Also, no one wants the rubber band effect of over-tuning and nerfing back. Again, I may be misunderstanding what you wrote, but that's the general consensus, even from those outside the class.
  13. Badname3245 Journeyman

    This entire thread should be this:

    Instead what we see from just from this threads first three pages, which is a tiny sample of the sentiment shown in other threads and god knows how many PM's for the past few years. Mainly because most wizards refuse to adapt their play from what worked years ago so rather than seeing what Kizant and others see they widen the gap to the point that that below is their reality:

    We can agree or not that I have made my point but hopefully it gets us to the point that wizards need some help for sure but wizards don't need an entire nuke revamp or other silly proposed ideas that over correct whats not there.
  14. SonOfABiscuit Augur

    So, myself and some guildies did a little experiment in the Zland mission seeing how everyone stacks up DPS wise (everyone is full raid geared). In order of highest dps to lowest, it went: Ranger - Rog - Mag - Wiz. Can someone please for the love of God fix wizards. /sadface on
  15. Mongol311 Worst Wiz in EQ

    I had a conversation with Dreamweaver in DMs a couple months back, here it is copied below as an FYI for the rest of the wizard community. For context, I had asked for a sticky thread for Wizard suggestions so we would have a place to weigh in without clogging various sections of the forums.

    That's probably unlikely, the primary reason being I can't make one for every class and we don't want the appearance of it being worked on currently as Aristo said in his comment its something the devs have been discussing for several months but there are other things in line first so there isn't a definitive timeframe of when it will be pertinent. I will say, Aristo does look at the class forums more often than he does Veterans lounge.
    dreamweaver, Mar 17, 2021
    Petalonyx likes this.
  16. dizzadar Journeyman

    This game is too hard to balance anymore we don't even know who is supposed to be what dps every class just makes up excuses as to why they should be the highest dps. Ask anyone and they will bring up what the other classes can do that they can't. At this point all dps imo should just be the same its easier no one will complain.
  17. Petalonyx Augur

    This is interesting. Something seems wrong (impossible?) to me if mages are beating wizards on a short burn like Zlandicar. Mages are slow ramp with swarm pet-dependent nukes, chaotic fire buff recourse, long cast time spears, and swarm pets that basically work like dots.

    I don't think full raid gear matters near as much as full AA + proc aug (7+ cast procs) + caster ADPS stuff. It's hard to see where your data point really is without additional info.
  18. Skuz I am become Wrath, the Destroyer of Worlds.

    That's been a disconnect all of EQ's existence, the devs haven't really ever had a "DPS hierarchy" in mind when making class changes they've tended to address "outliers" where there was perceptibly large differences that didn't fit well or things that caused a huge outcry.

    Meanwhile every player has a DPS hierarchy in mind and a bias on where they feel their own class stacks up against the rest & an internal logic around why that should be.

    I don't think balancing is too hard though, complex yes.
  19. Thundersnake Elder

    Keep in mind that you may have no mana issues now, but if they revamp wizards that is almost certain to change. Every single class they have revamped had the mana usage go way up. Specially if we you want to be able to solo efficiently with no support classes for mana regen post fix.
  20. kizant Augur

    Wizards don't need a revamp. It's not like they're going to collapse 20 levels of nukes into one big nuke. That's why mana costs went up for DoT classes. They collapsed a bunch of spell lines and had to consider the damage increase pet DoT tick but also the fact that you only have to cast 1 spell and that the total damage will ramp up faster.