Wizard Love

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Mazame, Feb 12, 2021.

  1. Kragin011 New Member

    It's honestly depressing on how much work it takes to even come close to other pure dps classes damage.
    Laronk and Mongol311 like this.
  2. Vumad Augur


    I agree. We should also put zerkers in silk. They wont need to worry about their HP and mitigation with snare. Maybe nerf how well zerkers tank and melee compared to wizards and give zerkers snare and make them a throwing class. Zerkers could just be wizards that do physical damage like boulder throw or something. Then wizards should get a decapitate ability like zerkers.

    Wizards are a pure DPS class. They are the original zerkers in caster form. They should be parsing almost identical to each other. Snare and ports has nothing to do with it and is a ridiculous sentiment to compare the two classes on these abilities.

    The foundation of Zerker being pure melee DPS and Wizard being pure caster DPS, with minimal support/utility roles, makes it obvious that they should DPS, not just close, but nearly identical. Comparing zerk/wiz is in no way shape or form like comparing clr/dru or war/pal. Zerk/Rog/Wiz should all be tieing on the parse when they have the same gear/adps/play quality/etc.
    Yinla and Coagagin like this.
  3. Darchon_Xegony Augur

    I think reworking Twincast entirely would be a good step to rebalancing Wizard DPS and fixing some lag issues.

    Currently Twincast will just cast a 2nd version of the spell. This check happens on every spell/proc. And then the subsequent casts need to calculate all the damage/resist checks.

    Instead they could rework Twincast to function like it does for DoTs. Where instead of casting the spell twice it just doubles the base damage of the ability.

    Also in doing this they could make it such that certain classes receive a different twincast modifier. IE . Wizards may have twincasted spells do 2.5x base damage. Other classes may have a value between 2.4-2.0x base damage. These values could be adjusted based upon how reliant classes are on sympathetic procs which would inevitably be reduced in frequency because twincasting wouldn't give you 2 chances to proc them.

    From a druid perspective, changing the Great Wolf AA line to be identical to the Pact of the Wolf Shaman AA line would also be a good boost to wizard raid DPS. Currently druids have 100% uptime on great wolf, however this is accomplished by cycling group/single wolf. If instead druid wolf form was change to be an aura that is persistent, wizards would have a consistent increased crit chance/amplifier instead of the current 60% uptime druids currently bring to their group.
    Mongol311 likes this.
  4. menown Augur

    A twincasted DoT still casts the DoT 2x. However, there is a difference in the outcomes. Even if one of the 2 twincasted DoTs gets resisted and the other still lands, you will still have the full twincasted DoT damage for the one that did not get resisted. For DD spells, if one of the 2 twincasted DDs get resisted, then you lost the potential damage from that 1 DD.

    So you are still going through the same resist checks with either combination. Maybe there can be code to make the twincasted DD apply the damage of both DDs in one output? I don't know.
  5. Cragzop Cranky Wizard


    I'm all for boosts, but changing Great Wolf is not a wizard boost. It's a druid boost. If we're grouped with a druid, sure we might also gain a benefit. But if you cannot guarantee every soloing/grouping wizard has access to a druid ... not a wizard boost.

    Given the stated issues with too many spells being cast (devs words, not mine), touching twincast should not be on the agenda until the developers want to lean that way. Again twincast modification is not a wizard issue per se, but a wizard/druid/mage issue.

    As one of the more vocal (pain in the ) wizards on the forum, this thread has been depressing. We're 13 pages in and folks seem to get excited about all these specialized modifications to various burn abilities as part of a fix for our issues.

    Most wizards I talk to (usually folks playing an alt wizard toon or new folks starting out) like playing a wizard cause they get to blow stuff up. They don't want to calculate SPAs. They don't want to search for every proc augmentation possible. They don't want to melee. They want to target a mob (or group of mobs) and lay down some hurt. BOOM!!!

    Beimeith (possibly in this thread, maybe in another) got to the core of our problem - wizards suck if they don't critical. There's two things to do - boost critical rate (we still have the lowest critical rate of casters) and boost non-critical damage. There are dozens of other things we can get to tweak/fine toon/etc. our dps, especially on burns. But those two things need to be our focus, our priority as the wizard community.
  6. Laronk Augur

    I think it's more how much you have to pay attention
  7. kizant Augur

    You can't have every cast be a big boom and at the same time make the class super easy to play. That's just poor design and I can't imagine the devs are going to go for it. I'd even argue that the easiest classes should never be the best anything simply because they're easy.

    The same goes with having the biggest 'boom'. If you really want that then you're going to have to sacrifice something else. There has to be tradeoffs. And no, it's not valid to point at necros and say what about them? They're broken and everyone knows it. We should be aiming for a version of the class that actually makes sense and provides good game play.

    For me, the class has always been about doing a lot of damage in a short period of time. The #1 thing for me is that our burst DPS be increased. I don't care at all about sustained damage. That's what melee or what pet classes are for. Now, is our sustained a little too low right now? Sure, maybe, and one of the items in my list of recommendations was to increase Destructive Adept by a good amount. Increasing our crit rate is not the only way to address the problem and I really don't know why you guys are so hyper focused on it. It's only 1 of the factors that go in to determining your DPS and on raids your crit rate should already be super high as it is. Once your over 100% you're not getting anything out of it.

    And as far as complexity goes I'd like the class to be far far more difficult than it currently is. Nobody should want to box a Wizard because it takes too much attention to perform well. More penalties and combos required for larger nukes, etc would be ideal to me. Let some other class be the boring class for newbies like SKs or Mages.
    Mongol311 and FawnTemplar like this.
  8. Cragzop Cranky Wizard

    Kizant ... you are the best wizard player in the game and I'm pretty certainly no one would say they are better than you. But how often do you play your wizard outside of raids (I know you are in at least two raiding guilds) or missions?


    All you are obsessed with is burst dps. And especially burst raid dps ... which is RoI's specialty. Which is fine, someone should be. But pretty much every other wizard in the game spends far more time outside of raids than in them (probably looking for groups or struggling with content that doesn't match our current skill set). And there are many more of them than there are like you (well, those that are left ... a lot have changed to other classes or just quit). And burst dps doesn't mean anything when you are out killing for several hours alone or in a group.

    Your point of view is a valid point of view ... but it's also the most narrow, restrictive view of what a wizard is in the game. Many others of us don't share your point of view. History of the wizard class in game does not share your point of view. Most importantly, your point of view only cares about old existing wizards ... who raid primarily. We need more folks into the wizard class (even as an alt).

    The most important thing right now is that we have no idea what they are going to change next to help with lag. They might remove all procs. They might remove Twincast. They might remove aes. They might actually invest in better server and networking architecture. We do know they need to do something. And we do know that they think casting is the main cause (at least right now).

    Considering the fact that the necro revamp STILL isn't done, not to mention the rebalance (that every other dot class seemed to get immediate afterward ... hmm) ... it seems foolish to think about highly specific modifications that may be worth nothing after the dust settles from wherever the lag fixes take us and then a hard look at wizards. But you know what always works? Base crit chance ... base spell damage. No matter what further changes happen, those two things just make us better.

    There is no reason why our base crit rate cannot be change to match other casters (53 vs 57 percent). Honestly, there's no reason as the primary direct damage class, our critical rate should not match necro's crit dot rate (61 percent). And as you said, the best way to increase base damage is through Destructive Adept aa already in game. At least a 5 percent bump ... maybe 10 percent even at the top right now. But the most important thing is that these changes can be done easily as the aas already exist. So it's something to shoot for WHILE we wait until the dust settles on lag.

    Once lag is "fixed" (for some level of fix) and the necro revamp is finished, we can see where we stack up and then ask to fine tune our specific abilities to get to where we were/think we should be. But I don't want September to roll around and we have nothing positive added while the developers move fully into the next expansion.

    ...and finally, I want what I choose to do on my wizard to matter how my dps output is. But only narcissists really care about their total when other classes are kicking our tails following simple scripts/plans. That's what wizarding is right now ... soaking up a slot in a raid or a group when better options aren't available.
    Coagagin and Mongol311 like this.
  9. Jumbur Improved Familiar

    Sometimes when I log on to EQ, I feel like soloing. Perhaps even trying to complete a few quests here and there. That has been very difficult the last few expansions.
    I am ok with not being able to handle group quests(thats what grouping is for), but stuff like mercenary-quests or simple kill-quests, is still problematic to molo for a wizard.
    I would like some wizard-love in that area. :)
    Yinla likes this.
  10. kizant Augur

    Not very often but when I do I've never been in a situation where my DPS was holding us back and exp groups tend to be fairly casual so as long as you're doing a reasonable amount I'm not sure why it's something to focus on so much.

    Also, the only parses I've seen on the forums where people complain about how bad we are in groups have been very biased. It would be nice to see some good parses for comparison.

    I focus on it because it's always been the main strength of the class and we've fallen behind way too many other classes. And once you fix the burn DPS it will automatically raise our sustained DPS. They're not completely disconnected things.

    This I don't understand. How many expansions have Wizards been the strongest in sustained group DPS? I may have quit multiple times and probably missed 7 or 8 expansions when they were live but I never remember that being a thing outside of old AE groups.

    But what's the point? Arguing over who has the highest crit rate is meaningless. It's not the only factor involved. They could make a class with 100% crit rate that does 0 DPS if they wanted. It just seems to me that it's not a good argument on its own. What do you think the expected DPS increase would be from that increase? I assume it's nowhere near enough to solve the problem, right? I'm not even saying it's a bad idea, I just don't get why it's such a sticking point.

    I know some people seem to be disagreeing with me but if I had to choose I'd ask for an increase in crit damage over crit rate so we can have the bigger 'boom'.
  11. Beimeith Lord of the Game

    It isn't a matter of us holding back a group / preventing a group from being successful.

    Even if your team wins the game it still sucks to get picked last, (or next to last) every time. Wizards are supposed to be a first string DPS class, not third.

    As for why it's something to focus on, the vast majority of time spent in the game for most people is group content, so that should be the focus. That doesn't mean ignoring raiding of course.

    Agreed that they're not disconnected, and agreed that it has always been the main focus of the class, but having 80%+ of our total damage come from burns that are active 20% of the time, (note: exaggerated numbers) is simply not good design nor gameplay.

    I can't speak for Cragzop, but I think he was referring to you saying you want the class to be more complicated?

    For me at least, it's a sore spot because crits were supposed to be a Wizard class thing, along the lines as Bards being the "fastest" class, or rogues being the best "sneak/invis" class, or Enchanters being the best "illusion" class, or Rangers being the best archery class.

    That said, I don't think more crit rate is the answer to our issues. Honestly I think ALL classes have too much crit rate as it is, but that genie left the bottle long ago.


    Well, while I agree with you about more crit rate not being the answer (even if I do want parity with the other casters) I disagree with you about more crit damage. I still maintain that what we need is a large increase in non-critical damage, which of course, means our crits will be higher as well, but the disparity between crits and non-crits will be lessened.
    Kelset and Coagagin like this.
  12. Beimeith Lord of the Game


    Destructive Adept is SPA124, aka worn focus. 5-10% more is peeing in the wind.

    For it to have any real, noticeable effect it needs 200% or more, preferably 3-400%.

    Here is the focus that the Level 115 caster (wizard) mercs use. It's 400% and the caster mercs do ~45K dps by themselves on Burn mode (which is chaincasting the 3 ethereals).

    Code:
    [42582] MRC - ID Focus - Tier V - lvl:115 - 400%
    Target: Self
    Resist: Beneficial, Blockable: Yes
    Focusable: Yes
    Casting: 0s
    Duration: 120h+ (72000 ticks), Dispelable: Yes
    1: SPA 124 Base1=400 Base2=400 Max=0 Calc=100 --- Increase Spell Damage by 400% (v124, Before DoT Crit, After Nuke Crit)

    Half-assing it on a test dummy 5 minutes ago I was doing about 300k with no activated abilities or adps.

    Now, we all know that mercs perform poorly for a multitude of reasons, but that isn't my point. My point is that the benefit of worn focus is so miniscule for DD spells that even with a 400% focus effect and casting Ethereals, mercs still perform badly because the bulk of a real Wizards' damage comes from other things.
    Kelset likes this.
  13. Jumbur Improved Familiar

    They could add randomized recourse effects to all our nukes. A bit like a personal evokers synergy.
    So that if I cast a nuke, it has a 100% chance to trigger a random recourse:
    33% chance to trigger a fire recourse, a 33% chance to trigger a frost recourse and a 33% chance to trigger a magic recourse. each recourse would give a massive bonus(triple base-damage or better) to the next damage spell, IF I cast the correct type, wrong type cast will just waste it.

    Make it worthwhile to abandon the predetermined spell-weave/spam-button and chase the random recourse-effects.
    Encourage me to make an AT for each recourse and adapt on the fly...:)

    (yes, this would be difficult to master...)
  14. kizant Augur

    I wouldn't have a problem with that. I assumed someone thought Wizards could be more a D&D wild mage based on the original wild magic line being added. But I can understand if some people want more predictability.

    Oh maybe. Well, I think it's hard to argue for a class being strong if it's also super simple. If all we had to do was spam Ice Comet I don't think we'd deserve to be any better than we are.
  15. Vumad Augur

    On raids I am paired with a druid and a bard and the 3 of us are really doing well on aDPS. The wizard in our group was second on my parse for everything that night right behind a rogue.

    Now I don't know much about wizards but I talked to the wizards about their performance and I guess one of their big burns is on a 20 minute refresh. IOG and haze are on a 13 minute refresh. A simple improvement to wizards would be to adjust their burn timers so that they can be used more in line with IOG and great wolf. The timing of these burns means we get 1 good coordinated burn and then there is little coordination after that.

    The other big issue for wizards compared to zerks and rogues is mana drains. The base DPS of the Zerk and Rog with no endurance need to be looked at. Wizards need to have some way to DPS without mana that is in line with Zer/Rog without endurance (ie. Tanor, ToFS#1). I don't have great ideas for this but my initial idea is to give them an AA that lets them cast a nuke for 0 mana if they have less than 5% mana. That way they can stay in the fight without mana in a comparable way to how Rog/Zer can stay in the fight without endurance. Also, mages and necros have pets. All other DPS classes can melee. Wizard is the purest form of DPS and is the only DPS class that can do absolutely 0 DPS without mana/endurance. They need help here.

    I am sure there are a lot of other changes that wizards need, but matching Wiz burn timers to ENC burn timers is a very easy adjustment. Giving them a mana free DPS method is a bit more complicated but I think there are some easy options here too.

    Again, my knowledge of wizards is limited. I just try to work with them with IoG, Haze, spire and synergy.
    Travestii likes this.
  16. Vumad Augur

    Deleted. Server timeout caused duplicate post.
  17. Beimeith Lord of the Game

    This is actually what Claw does, not that anyone really pays attention to it.


    Code:
    [60115] Fire Claw Reflection Caza IX
    Target: Self
    Resist: Beneficial, Blockable: Yes
    Focusable: Yes
    Casting: 0s
    1: SPA 340 Base1=35 Base2=60022 Max=0 Calc=100 --- Cast: Syllable of Fire Caza IX (35% Chance) (v340)
    2: SPA 340 Base1=5 Base2=60025 Max=0 Calc=100 --- Cast: Syllable of Ice Caza IX (5% Chance) (v340)
    3: SPA 340 Base1=5 Base2=60028 Max=0 Calc=100 --- Cast: Syllable of Magic Caza IX (5% Chance) (v340)
    4: SPA 340 Base1=12 Base2=60031 Max=0 Calc=100 --- Cast: Syllable of Mastery Caza IX (12% Chance) (v340)
    
    The problem of course is that the damage bonuses aren't generally significant enough to bother paying attention to them. It's not a hard thing to fix though.

    Concussion does it as well, though that also doesn't matter much since aggro isn't normally a problem:

    Code:
    [60045] Concussive Shock Recourse Caza IX
    Target: Self
    Resist: Beneficial, Blockable: Yes
    Focusable: Yes
    Casting: 0s
    1: SPA 340 Base1=40 Base2=60046 Max=0 Calc=100 --- Cast: Concussive Flame IX (40% Chance) (v340)
    2: SPA 340 Base1=40 Base2=60047 Max=0 Calc=100 --- Cast: Concussive Chill IX (40% Chance) (v340)
    3: SPA 340 Base1=20 Base2=60048 Max=0 Calc=100 --- Cast: Concussive Magic IX (20% Chance) (v340)
    There are a few potential problems with this:

    1) It increases spell cast count, (aka lag)
    Recourses are a spell cast. This would effectively make every spell we cast 2 spells when the current goal is to reduce spell casts.

    2) Random bonuses can be bad when they make NPCs that resist different types of spells. E.g. you get a bonus to fire spells, but the NPC resists fire so it's wasted. Granted, this is the exception not the rule, but it is something to consider.

    3) Having the bonus wasted when casting the wrong type is kind of bad. As spell cast times have decreased it has become much more difficult to stop a cast when needed to utilize the right spell. The existing example of this is something like trying to cast Alliance on a Gift of Mana proc, by the time you get the trigger you are often halfway through casting a spell with at most 1.875s often less. EQ has become too fast to really support this kind of mechanic.

    Of course, that can all be mitigated by just not having it get wasted if you cast the wrong spell...just not get the bonus until you do.



    Well, I'm certainly not advocating for a return to the days of spamming of Ice Comet, but it is a question of how complicated should the game be to play? Making it too complicated raises the barrier of entry for new players. One could easily argue that the game is already *too* complicated just based on the sheer number of spells, AAs, items, etc. that it takes to perform at a high level.

    There is a reason most other MMOs have like 10 spell lines that auto upgrade (E.g. Ethereal Fire 1-10) and have a similarly limited number of non-spell activated abilities: It makes playing and designing the game easier. Again, I'm not arguing EQ should be that way, only that there are legitimate reasons why most other games are like that.
    Jumbur, Sancus and kizant like this.
  18. Kalvenie Apprentice

    My take on wizard changes:

    Damage focus burns have very long cool down timers, particularly when they give 1-2 minutes of uplift. Only useful for short burn fights.
    Having some shorter cool down burns that can be used more frequently would enhance long duration fights, or those where you need a little bit of extra powah. Melees have this... so why punish casters?

    Mana burn and Alliance debuff block is a ridiculous thing and don't help to enhance overall DPS of wizards in raid by any notable measure, depending on the number of wizards and whether alliance is being change cycled.

    Twincast is the only sure fire way to boost DPS outside of burns, the cool down timer is too long, and the fact it is not refreshed by claw spell bonus, is annoying. As is the randomness of claw spells gracing a wizard with a twincast.

    Gambit line of mana regen is limited to certain spell types, making recouping mana while continuing to DPS less effective. It would be more convenient to increase the type of spells that allow this to proc (even increasing the number needed to proc from 4 to 6 would be a welcome compromise).

    Druzzil Harvest cast time should be less... clerics get an instant cast. While we're on the topic, druids could probably use a mana recoup mechanism.

    AE damage is a point of difference for wizards, yet AE spells are not efficient for DPS, and often come with a penalty...


    The point about zone lag related to spell casts: most wizards aren't looking tocast more spells... they're looking for spells to be more effective and and DPS boosts to increase overall output across 10-15 minutes events, and not just fights that last 2 minutes.
  19. Yinla Ye Ol' Dragon

    Suggestion to improve Claws
    Fire - only gives a recourse for Fire and Ice spells
    Ice - Only gives a recourse for Ice and Magic spells
    Magic - Only gives a recourse for Magic and Fire spells
    This would make it possible to aviod an uncompatiable recouse for resistant mobs.
    The bonus added for these recourses could do with being increased to make it more worth while to cast them and give them a bigger boom, after all that is why we are all wizzys.

    Pretty much all our spells could do with a boost to base damage, even if they made no other changes a boost to base damage would go a long way to getting us where we should be.

    I also feel they need to remove the mana from Forces, we need something we can cast when we have no mana and with the number of mana draining mobs this expansion we could use something.

    There was a time when casters and melee used to alternate who was top dog, on a level increase 1 would be top on a non level increase the other would be. For the last few expansion wizzys have been dropping further and further behind and not catching up/passing like we did in the old days.

    I don't want a complicated class, but I do want an interesting class, mashing keys trying to get the next spell to cast isn't fun. Especially when you consider our melee counterpart can trigger discs and AAs one after another with less than a second gap. I'm more than happy to pay attention to recourses to know what is best to cast next, but it should have a better outcome than someone just spamming a single key.
  20. Jumbur Improved Familiar


    Yeah, my inspiration was partially from the claw line. :) except that claw-bonusses stay for a whole minute and does not disappear if you cast the wrong spell first. You don't have to pay attention with claw, having a mash-button with all 3 types of damage is enough for the current claw.

    I want to reward the attentive and adaptive wizard with a huge bonus that makes the extra effort worthwhile. Im completely fine with having a focused skilled wizard doing triple-damage compared to a bad wizard.

    Regarding your points:

    1) and 3) They could increase the global cooldown to give the wizard a longer pause to think before he cast, and decrease the casting time instead. This will make the class less spammy and reduce lag, while also making the class a bit more involving than having a single mash-button.

    2) The recourse bonus could also affect the resist-modifier.