Wizard class still "dead"?

Discussion in 'Casters' started by Waitwhat, Sep 28, 2022.

  1. kizant Augur

    What revamp issue do you mean?
  2. Valcron Elder

    Nothing is going to change for this class in later expansions, so I would just move on at this point if you're not happy.
  3. Szilent Augur

    that's a weird thing to say, as things *are* changing in the present, i.e. latest expansion
  4. Valcron Elder

    Is it enough though?
  5. Szilent Augur

    Try it out, see how you do
  6. Frakius New Member

    Any updates on how Wizards are performing in game at 120 wondering how we are compared to the usual suspects after the buff? Only logging in to do lessons on my alts and have not leveled up my wizard so can't test for myself.
  7. Marton Augur

    Can watch Kizant's stream from T1 raids to see how wizards are doing.
  8. Marcos New Member

    Still bad. We gained 6% increase on our Ethereals, above the normal 6% increase. A drop in the bucket of what was needed to even bring us close to where we needed to be in ToL. Of the 4 "new" spells from the xpac, we got a new self only evac that is an "upgrade" to previous version that we never had a reason to load into a spell gem. We did get an upgrade to a Vortex spell that was from TBL, but that's about it.
    If it's a raid that doesn't require constantly killing adds, running around, zone wide stuns, etc we don't do bad. Sadly they don't do those raid fights like that anymore.
  9. Valcron Elder

    Also, no class balancing updates this year, it's not on the roadmap
  10. ~Mills~ Augur

    Have you watched Kizants video from T1 NoS?.

    Give or take some parsing errors he was 5th on Hashiss and 10th on Pit Fight (within 21% of top displayed parse). The biggest problem with wizards is most refuse to adapt. Its spam 1-2 single target biggest nukes for every event and then complain about how bad the class is.
  11. Marcos New Member

    Yes, I have seen it. Lets be honest, his guild powers through events much quicker than every other guild in the game. Length of the fight does alter parse rankings greatly. I especially like that part where he's chaining Glyph's all event long. 90 AA per event sound about right? So not able to sustain that for the nights raiding. It's a perfect example of all the planets falling into alignment and cherry picking an "example" that you try to pass off as the norm.
    I've tied with necro's during Shei when I get to stand up top and just go ham. 95% of the time I'm down on the floor dodging aura's, killing heal adds, etc .
    . Wizards require 3 adps classes to reach those numbers. I'm in a top 15(last I checked)serverwide guild. Most of the time you are lucky to get 1 or 2. Our guild doesn't have enough bards and chanters for every dps group, hell some nights we get none and our healer is a shaman box. All you "try hards" out there think you can magically offset the increase you get from properly played support classes.
    Most events aren't just a straight burn where everyone clicks their stuff right at the start and they run their course. I've lost track of how many times I have gotten a "runaway" emote right after clicking all my burn stuff and now my window is 1/3 gone to use any of it. Or worse insta death and didn't get to use any of it. Several Raids have emotes that you will wipe everybody, so you just have to run away and wait to die.
    Raid events are designed in such a way to lean into the strength of dot and pet classes Events are designed to have unavoidable damage in them. Why doesn't the cooldown on Harvest reset on death? How many times have you died after using it, now you are unable to cast anything for a min or two? I've even had a druid that refused to heal because " he needed all his mana for dps". Dot and pet classes numbers just keep climbing WHILE they aren't able to cast. Wizards cannot. Now throw in achievements that you have to hold off your burn until late in the event. No guarantee that you or your adps haven't died between event start and when you need to burn. To top that off, you had to hold off your burn until late in an event, now it's not available when you need it next event because of the 20 min cooldown. Other dps classes have 5, 7, 10 min refresh burn AA's wiz have 7, 10, 20. Why is that? Why is it that the biggest AA upgrade we got from BETA , Destructive Adept doesn't help on a Raid because you already have a near 100% uptime on Auspice?

    And since you set Kizant as the Gold standard for the class( which he earns, rightly so). From page one of the thread four months ago....
  12. Valcron Elder

    You should tag Kizant if you guys are talking about him!
  13. Marcos New Member

  14. ~Mills~ Augur

    It is still a whole lot of reasons on why folks refuse to adapt. You don't tune the game around bad, lazy or not trying.
  15. Marcos New Member

    I'm not advocating for that. I'm saying that the difference from placing 5th or 25th shouldn't be based on 3 OTHER classes pushing the right buttons at the right time AND RNG from Crits, AND RNG from emotes AND RNG from Raid design
  16. Marton Augur

    You are wrong.
  17. ~Mills~ Augur

    It is like that for almost every class. Those with adps crush those without. But in many cases its still a situation of a self-fulfilling issue from a failure to adapt. Those that try a little less or don't care to be bothered for lots of things perform worse and then are most likely to not get any adps because of that and it only further pushes them down. Why should I farm glyphs, why should I adjust my burn, why should I farm all those 18/19 proc augs when I can max my alts stuff or tradeskills during my non raid play time instead.
    Marton likes this.
  18. Sancus Augur

    I understand being disgruntled with the state of Wizards, and a Wizard coming in 5th or 10th on a parse definitely doesn't mean that everything is fine. They should be able to top parses (along with other DPS classes) when played well/fully supported. That said, a lot of things listed here aren't really related to, or at least specific to, Wizard DPS underperformance.
    Everyone on that parse was using as many glyphs as Kizant. It's not necessarily the norm, but it is a fair comparison.
    ADPS is really important for any class in modern EQ. Fully supported melee groups include at least a Shaman, Bard, and Beastlord (three ADPS classes). The Mages in that raid actually had four support classes (Druid, Enchanter, Bard, and Shaman). DoT classes aren't as reliant on priest ADPS (neither Shaman nor Druids have great DoT ADPS), but still require a Bard/Enchanter.

    There is some variation in unsupported vs supported DPS between classes, and I think more should be done across the board to close the gap. The Destructive Adept boost was a good step towards boosting unsupported Wizard DPS. Maybe more could be done in that area (e.g., for unsupported burst). That said, again, all classes rely heavily on support and all classes that Kizant is being compared to have full ADPS just like he did.
    Every class in the game can get unlucky and have a runaway emote during their burn. Also, most events are conducive to burning at the start of the event and on cooldown, and not doing that is a big part of why guilds have much longer fight times than they should.
    This is a common misconception, or at least poorly specified. Consider two scenarios (simplified for the sake of example):
    • Scenario 1: You are a DoT caster with 12 DoTs with durations ranging from 30 seconds to 90 seconds. The durations and cast times are such that each time you cast a DoT, another DoT is wearing off (thus, you're always reapplying DoTs). You're doing this on a single target boss mob that lives for a very long time. Each DoT has the same damage per cast assuming it lasts its full duration.
    • Scenario 2: You are a DD caster with 12 spells with recasts ranging from 30 seconds to 90 seconds. The reuse and cast times are such that each time you cast a DD, another DD is coming off cooldown (thus, you're always casting a new spell). You're doing this on a single target boss mob that lives for a very long time. Each DD does the same damage per cast (and, each DD does the same damage per cast as the DoTs in Scenario 1)
    In both cases, your DPS is equal to the damage per spell cast multiplied by the number of casts. If you run away for 20 seconds and forgo let's say 4 spell casts, in both scenarios your damage declines by 4 * damage per cast. It's actually entirely irrelevant whether the spell does damage immediately or over time except that the duration acts as an effective cooldown (on a single target) and the spell can do less than its expected damage/cast if the mob dies early. The same concept applies to swarm pets (which are effectively visual DoTs).

    To the extent DoT caster DPS is insulated from running for emotes, it's actually due to the uneven distribution of damage between DoTs, not because they continue ticking. If a disproportionate portion of a Necro's damage comes from let's say three DoTs, and he gets emoted after they're applied while they still have a long duration remaining, his damage suffers less (because the DoTs he forgoes casting are relatively weak). The same thing would happen if, for example, Wizard Ecliptic was a large % of overall Wizard damage.

    Primary pets are truly "free" damage while emoted, but they comprise at best 25% of a pet class's DPS. It's better to do 25% of your DPS while running for an emote than 0%, but it's really not a huge differentiating factor in class performance (and, there are downsides in raids to having pets from a maintenance, lag, and pathing standpoint).
    These factors affect everyone.
    There are classes with shorter and longer reuse timers than Wizards. I do think Arcane Fury/Fury of the Gods should be 15 minute reuse to sync with Improved Twincast. Mana Burn is also a really long reuse obviously, but it would need to do a lot more to be meaningful even with a 15 minute (or whatever) reuse.
    Destructive Adept is just as useful on a raid as it is in groups in terms of raw DPS added. It's a smaller percentage increase when you have higher crit rates because your overall DPS is higher and SPA 124 doesn't further scale with crit chance, but it's not like it actually gets less effective. Considering how much you're concerned about ADPS dependence, you should be happy that the boost was ADPS-agnostic.
    Szilent, Tucoh and Piemastaj like this.
  19. Mookus Augur

    The people playing wizards are the worst people playing dps classes is your point? The wizard cohort has a greater percentage of slackers than say... mages. Is that the agenda you're pushing?

    You may be right. Surely the best people at adapting have adapted themselves to not playing wizards in the first place.
    Waitwhat likes this.
  20. ~Mills~ Augur

    From my experience there are a lot more folks hung up on the class being played exclusively as it was in 2004.

    They only want to cast the biggest nukes over and over without any concern for claws, vortex or changing out to AE nukes. They don't care to melee mobs at all since they play a caster. They "save" stuff constantly for the just in case moments rather then endlessly on refresh. They choose to continue doing what they are doing despite all the evidence being shown to them its wrong in regards to their return.