Wishes for the next expansion?

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Lilura, Jun 12, 2019.

  1. Brohg Augur

    I disagree.

    What you describe is a prime example. That's exactly what rk3s are.

    in Luclin:
    2: Increase Current Mana by 35 per tick
    7: Decrease Current HP by 36 per tick

    took raids to become
    2: Increase Current Mana by 44 per tick
    7: Decrease Current HP by 42 per tick

    2: Increase Current Mana by 297 per tick
    7: Decrease Current HP by 268 per tick

    takes raids to become
    2: Increase Current Mana by 312 per tick
    7: Decrease Current HP by 281 per tick

    anyone who thinks one version of that transition is differentially cool is ... how to say delicately ... probably challenged to see the humor in the classic Spinal Tap sketch "it goes to 11!"
  2. Nennius Curmudgeon

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  3. Mehdisin Mahn Augur

    except in the 'ancient' version it was basically a rk3 on crack. an ~25% upgrade for ancient... vs a 5% upgrade for Rk3.
    similarly, avatar to the 'ancient' version was about a 20% bump
    the other shaman 'ancient' was an ~40% bump to a DoT.....
    part of this would be attributed to there not really being a new spell in that line (in many cases) for the expansion.. but,
    I *think* this is what ravanta was talking about.

    yes, they're both upgrades to existing spell lines... which fundamentally makes them in the same category as rk1-3 spells... but the 'ancient' upgrade was more than a normal bump in power for that time. it was also semi-difficult (in era) to obtain the ancient spells, as there were a limited number drops in the end-game zone... kinda like the lamps from TBL raids.

    I wouldn't be terribly upset if they had both the standard set of spell upgrades AND a couple of ancient spells in our next trip to the icy island.... maybe an ancient dissident roar and an ancient curse dot for shamans..... $$
    Ravanta Suffer likes this.
  4. Ravanta Suffer Augur

    Fine, you disagree.

    Look at the average size of a necro's mana pool in Luclin. (or nowadays velious since TLP's have the advantage of luclin ancients dropping off vulak)
    Then look at the average size of a necro's mana pool in TBL.

    How much less time would each person with the respective upgrade in era have to sit to regen their mana back?

    Not to mention the other perks TBL necros have access to such as ooc regen, gift of mana, blood magic, death bloom, etc.

    Pull out your calculator, divide 312 by 297. And then divide 44 by 35. Which seems more significant to you?

    MoD is not even close to the best level 60 ancient. It's just the one I cited because it's the one I'm most familiar with. If a necro picked up MoD, at the raid level nothing changes much or at all. Could you say the same to the first time a raid has access to a cleric with ancient gift of aegolism? Ancient Lcae's Lament?

    Instead of comparing rank 2's to rank 3's, what they were talking about would be like comparing the TBL spells to the prior expansions spells. There was no weaker version of the ancient spells for some other classes in the same era. That's the point they were making.
  5. Brohg Augur

    The upgrades in Luclin were that large because characters had stayed level 60 since Kunark.

    Ancients were redone at 65 & 70, with "ancient" "variants" (i.e. the rk3) being released just one year later, and then concurrently. Those upgrades were (duh) not 25%

    And they weren't wild new things then, either. They were simply numerical upgrades players had to raid for.
  6. Mehdisin Mahn Augur

    you're right... the shaman ancient for 65 was not a 25% upgrade.... it was a nearly 100% upgrade for canni… and at 70 it was a ~50% upgrade to the lvl 68 canni spell (which was the same as the previous ancient)… again, this is compared to a 5% bump from rk2 to rk3 of the 108 canni spell.

    I don't know the other classes, but I did briefly look at necros… which looks like their lvl 70 ancients were upgrades to lvl 68 spells as well, and about 10% better. compared that to the 110 necro curse DoT which is about a 5% upgrade from Rk2 to Rk3 (non-raid vs raid right?)….

    so again I say, the ancients were a bigger bump than just rank 3 sees. we're sayin the same thing really, except you refuse to acknowledge that ancients were proportionally a much bigger upgrade to their predecessor than rank 2 to rank 3 of a spell is.
  7. Waring_McMarrin Augur

    You are right about the shaman canni being a massive but you are comparing a level 58 spell from kunark to a level 65 spell from GoD which was 6 expansions later with no upgrade. As for the OoW spells at 68 and 70 the upgrade is not as big as you make it 360 to 468 mana and 668 to 868 hp (30% overall boost). Also the level 68 canni was just a copy and past of the ancient spell from the previous expansion.
  8. Brohg Augur

    ... the 65 upgrade to canni sure did quadruple the mana return -- and changed the cool down from 3s to 18s. It was an overdue paradigm shift that subsequent canni spells all followed. The point is, whole & multiple years' upgrades being concentrated into one spell doesn't make the class 100% more powerful. Canni spell didn't make heals more powerful, dots more powerful, hots more powerful, pet more powerful. Current raid upgrades to spells aren't 2x each, but it's "each". Not 2x to one spell & "actual nothing" to the rest of the class' buttons.

    I do refuse to acknowledge that upgrading one spell is a bigger upgrade than getting to upgrade the spells of one's choosing and eventually all spells.

    I also refuse to acknowledge that 5 25 or 100% upgrades make a spell special & unique. It makes them better. It makes that spell more powerful, sure. But Ravanta above caring more about the word "Ancient" in the spell name more than the wild dps upgrade of whole new dot line Funeral Pyre of Kelador is nutty.
    Waring_McMarrin likes this.
  9. Mehdisin Mahn Augur

    you're right, I eyeballed the 68-70 bump... but it doesn't invalidate my point. 30% from upgrade within the same expansion is still >> 5% which is what the Rk2 to Rk3 boost is.
    comparing further.... the upgrade from 103 to 108 rk 3 is 21%... still less than the same expansion upgrade by an ancient spell.
  10. Mehdisin Mahn Augur

    you also refuse to read the entirety of posts....
    I clearly said I wouldn't be upset if we had both. not either-or.

    I think people vastly overestimate the amount of time it takes a dev to run a script on the rk1-3 spells to set their values, and there's no reason imo to do away with them...

    that being said, it would be great if they *also* re-introduced an ancient version of 1 or 2 spells/abilities for each class that were uncommon to obtain.
  11. Waring_McMarrin Augur

    You are still comparing the first upgrade a group shaman got in 7 expansions to a an upgrade that raid shaman got so that it didn't invalidate the raid spell from the previous expansion. And they are currently in the process of reducing the number of spells in the game so not sure why they would add in a new tier of raid spells over what the current raid spells already give
  12. Magickon Augur

    Brohg's usually a good guy, means well, and has a wide knowledge on a variety of topics. On other occasions he can be like he is now, making completely baseless assumptions about someone else. They don't become true because he said them.

    It's just pixels, let it go man.
  13. Mehdisin Mahn Augur

    except with the 68 to 70 comparison, i'm not. i'm literally comparing 2 spells from the same expansion (omens). one ancient and one regular... one that can be obtained through the group game, and one that can be obtained via raid… to 2 spells from the same expansion (TBL). one Rk2 and one Rk3... one that is obtained through the group game, and one that can be obtained via raid.

    and the entire point of the comparison is simply to say that the % increase on the ancient spells was higher than the "normal" ~5% bump currently given when going from rk2 to rk3.

    having a return of "ancient" spells would be in keeping with a theme when you return to an expansion that originally had them... but honestly, they never were huge game changers... they were more for convenience and prestige than anything else.
  14. smash Augur

    HA that get lockout as soon you kill a mob and collections are no drop, but each HA should drop some more.

    Would last collections longer and hunter more as well.
  15. Spellfire Augur

    That's horrible idea.
    Allayna likes this.
  16. Allayna Augur

  17. LDEffectsMe Augur

    Yeah so... People who return to the game (and typically start over because they don't remember how to play their original toons) have to replay through content that they've probably done dozens of times in the past and doesn't feel new to them, in order to get to the end game that they haven't seen before... Except... They'll probably quit before they ever get there and see it. Yep, great design and plan. Everything for the top end heavy player base, don't worry about getting anyone who comes back up there with something new and fun, make them grind 70-110 levels, with no one to group with, in order to see it. Spoken like true max level players who don't care about enticing anyone to come back... Not the target audience of my post. I was representing a different segment of the player base in this wishlist thread. lol.
  18. Tucoh Augur

    My opinion:
    Said differently, I'd be happy if they ditched rk2/rk3 spells and had 2 "ancient" spells per class. The shaman ones could be, for example:

    ancient rejuv: 10% more healing, 1 second less CD
    ancient pandemic: 1: Cast: Breath of Elkikatar 2: Cast: Vermistipus's Pandemic 3: Cast: Rirwech's Affliction

    Warrior's could be:
    Ancient Shield Sunder with substantially higher numbers
    Ancient Warlord's Grasp with a higher max level
  19. I-WANT-IT-NOW Augur

    How about trash mobs that are actually trash mobs in most zones. Not most trash mobs essentially being mini named because they constantly cast massive dots and nukes. There was a reason people flooded to GMM so take some lessons from that and leave the mini named effects to the final few zones trash.
    Raccoo and Corwyhn Lionheart like this.
  20. Allayna Augur


    Keep calling "base pop" "trash". Developers love that.