Windstalker's DIsc.....What's up with this?

Discussion in 'Hybrid' started by Randragon, Feb 11, 2018.

  1. Randragon Augur

    Imbues your weapons with energy, adding 6770 damage to your one-handed melee attacks and 10966 damage to your two-handed melee attacks. The amount of damage will be lower for faster weapons.
    Two questions come to mind:
    1: Why do we get punished because we have found using faster weapons in the past makes a disc like this very beneficial toward Ranger's?
    2: And where does the cutoff to where we see diminishing returns start? What delay?
    I wonder why the developers are so hard up on boning the Rangers
  2. Randragon Augur

    So I went back and checked the Allakhazam and Lucy descriptions of this spell. It seems they are all off.

    In game, Wild Stalkers III adds 644.4 to 1h melee attacks and 1043.8 to 2h attacks. The amount of damage will be lower for faster weapons.

    Here is Allakhazam's:

    1: Increase Chance to Critical DoT (6770%)
    2: Increase Chance to Critical DoT (6770%)
    3: Increase Chance to Critical DoT (10966%)
    4: Increase Chance to Critical DoT (10966%)
    5: Increase Chance to Critical DoT (6770%)
    6: Increase Chance to Critical DoT (10966%)
    Imbues your weapons with energy, adding 6770 damage to your one-handed melee attacks and 10966 damage to your two-handed melee attacks. The amount of damage will be lower for faster weapons.

    So not sure where Allakhazam got their info and I am wondering if that is Beta description or what not or just the wrong description of the spell.

    Either way, it still sucks that we don't know where the lower cut off of delay is.
    I suspect its below the 19dly mark. But I will have to run parses to see if its around there.

    Any thoughts from the Ranger community on this?
  3. Derka Power Ranger

    I'd have to agree that 19 is probably the cutoff since that's about the lowest delay that is easily obtainable. Extensive parsing would have to be done to see the drop off in dmg and if it's better to use Bosque with below 19 delay weaps
  4. Kiras Augur

    Allakhazam's spell parser has been significantly wrong for years. Use's or eqresource's instead for more accurate results.

    As far as the delay thing, my bet is that it's aimed at the Efreeti Standard. Pre EOK, our burns often involved that (or a twig) in offhand with copsestalker's going. A PoSky weapon being one of the best weapons in the game, instead of the modern weapons, probably offended some dev. I haven't parsed it out myself though.

    It seems conceivable that copsestalker is still superior to windstalker with the right weapon set if the penalty is significant. But both of them share timers with pureshot so they don't get a whole lot of use.
  5. fransisco Augur

    pretty funny devs freaked out about rangers using old weapons, but never have an issue with necros being CHAINED to their epic.
  6. Karthos Augur

    I parsed this on Test Server the other day. Using dual hornscale blades dps was lower using rk1 windstalker V's rk3 copsestalker. Using invested scale whip dps was significantly lower with rk1 windstalker V's rk3 copsestalker.

    Scale whip is only 1 year old so you can't even blame it on old weapons. Perhaps item Dev should let AA Dev know what the deal is?
  7. Moldar Augur

    what they did was make it a piece of garbage. The point is this disc was to simply use the quicker delay weapons because of how it simply added needs to now revert back to something very similar to's wrath

    but with obviously updated modifiers and preferably taken off of discipline timer 1.

    Bonus damage though is just that bonus damage it doesn't stack with a any other bonus damage mods you may get (IE beastlord synergy) unless it is higher than the bonus damage of your discipline. It also doesn't get modified items such as the Shaman Epic 2.0, any of our damage modification AA (Outrider's Guardian of the Forest), all it is does it just adds a flat number at the end to your damage roll (for both critical hits and non-critical hits).

    I mean even taking a look at the damage upgrade from Copsestalker's Rk. III to the Wildstalker's Rk. III the difference is only 390 points of damage difference.

    Vs taking a look at Bosquestalker's Discipline Rk III to Copsestalker's Discipline Rk. III the difference being 869 points of damage

    more than double the damage bonus difference, and on top of that sure the new one is better on paper than the old one, but the scaling garbage in the new one inherently makes it perform even worse than the older disciplines.

    It is just one more thing in the endless file folder that proves a developer doesn't even play this class (or at least not to its max potential). and furthermore proves the developer(s) in charge of designing this class couldn't find a way to hit the fat end of a build even giving them an illegal IRL aim-bot to give them 100% hit chance. . .
  8. Andarriel Everquest player since 2000

    so true they turn a blind eye with that.

  9. Brohg Augur

    I think the result you describe, how the "dly" stat completely trumped every other facet of a weapon's potential qualities, was viewed as a problem to be solved, not a quality to be enhanced or replicated. It certainly wasn't intentional that Revultant Whip and Efreeti Standard from 2000 out damaged 2015's Arx weapons.

    …which is not to say that I disagree with the overall sentiment. It is certainly an issue that melee & range damage discs which share timer don't have remotely equivalent utility.

    The scaling thing is fine. It's one way to solve to the "speed trumps quality" prob. That the overall disc isn't worth using suggests that the base value that's being scaled is much too low.
  10. Moldar Augur

    Your most likely correct, it was more than likely not the intent that weapons from 2000 would be the absolute best weapons for these disciplines. The way that bonus damage works in this game is just that bonus damage, it doesn't get modified in any way. it is your <damage calc/roll here> + X, where X is the damage w/ scaling factored into it using the new discipline (or where X is using the older Copsestalker's discipline @ Rk .III + Increase 1H ___ Damage Bonus by 6380 aka = <damage calc/roll here> + 6380)

    I have a few issues with the scaling:

    1.) In its current form it serves more as a detrimental discipline than a beneficial one.

    A. It takes up the discipline timer that is on the same timer as our archery discipline which at the moment scales with almost all ADPS instead of a select few (more on this in point 2.) ),

    B the scaling factor is very vague. this is's spell data on the new discipline at Rk. III

    This is EQ Resources spell data for Rk. III:

    And we are assuming that the scaling is in place to prevent the use of the revultant whip in the primary or the Efreeti Standard/Mosscovered Twig in the secondary hand (possibly the whip from EoK ancients as well), but we have no way of knowing if the base delay they are basing this off of is 10, 11, or 14 delay. in at which case, assuming EQ Resource is correct and it is a factor of scaling is based off of 10x then that means we need to minimum have weapons that have no less than 20, 21, or 24 delay in order to not receive a scaled down bonus damage to our weapon swings.

    Which the best melee weapons a ranger can get this expansion for standard sustained DPS from raids are daggers at 19 delay so we are already punished for getting the best sustained DPS weapons possibly (we just do not know for certain).

    2.) Again I can't seem to point out the fact it is only BONUS DAMAGE enough, AKA this damage this discipline gives us isn't affected by things like Glyph of the Cataclysm II, Shaman Epic 2.0, Fierce Eye, Guardian of the Forest, Outrider's Accuracy, etc etc etc.....

    The only ADPS that affects this discipline is anything that improves your rate of attack, this is primarily surrounding delay, So things like Overhaste, HHE, Triple/Double attacks, Flurries (primary only), and oh wait the actual DELAY of the weapon(s) you're using (although this isn't really ADPS, but you get my point). . .

    I honestly think the scaling thing would work better for something like our Empowered Blades ability (which is basically a direct copy and paste of the Rogue and Monk Dichotomic abilities w/ a 10 minute reuse timer instead of a 5 minute reuse timer), because as it is right now that 30 seconds doesn't have a scaling effect, actually in most cases making the 30 sec. AA a better burn ability than your main 3 minute discipline.

    And if they want to play scaling that all good and fine, but first, in my opinion the damage from your discipline should always scale with almost all ADPS, not just half of it, which potentially an / a few aspect(s) of that half potentially hurting the scaling factor even more via the damage calculations.
    and secondly it shouldn't interfere with the discipline timer, it should be something that goes to either your buff window or short-duration buff window (IE like Empowered Blades, or the Rogue / Monk Dichotomic abilities)

    In short, adding the scaling factor right into a 3-minute long discipline just made this almost 100% obsolete unless there is a fight this expansion where casters will not be able to DPS the Boss/add-mobs in anyway what-so-ever will this discipline be used when compared to the other option we have available to us.

    If they want us to use Wildstalker's Discipline then either the scaling factor needs to be removed and possibly a little more bonus damage added to it, or it needs to be completely remade into something else other than bonus damage w/ scaling and hopefully something not on timer 1; unless they intend to make us look like melee gods for a 3 minute duration (which I wouldn't have an issue with).
  11. Riou EQResource

    The scale on that SPA is 1x per 1s delay, after Haste/Slow. HHE doesn't count against it neither does something like Skill Reuse -x Seconds stuff (for when it boosts special attacks), so HHE is HUGE gains then anything else.

    The 10x cap meaning a 10s (100 delay) delay weapon when fully hasted (or something such as a spell or skill with recast > 10s) can not exceed a 10x gain (so line 1 MAX added possible would be Increase 1H Blunt Damage by 67700).
  12. OrchardField Journeyman

    What augs do you use, straight dmg or proc, or combo (less dmg, smaller proc)? I recently grabbed the revulant whip and scaled whip, when using empowered blades, a dot and focused arrow, auspice, plus a dicho, I can hit the low 100 dps (a lucky parse I hit 120k/sec, but 100 is more repeatable. That’s with a pair of 10 dmg augs. What’s your best combo of augs and AA to max this out? This is just hitting the dummy in guild hall, no other characters using buffs other than hasten and focused. Basically, I’m trying to find out if, other than extremely tight quarters where I’m closer than minimum bow range, if this will ever outdamage minimum distance archery where I can synergy kick and do most dmg with the bow. Oh and that’s with the self proc buff that does like 2k/proc and generates 6k hate...not something I want to generate unless tank is dead or moloing
  13. Moldar Augur

    I would use proc augments, obviously not the best ones you would use in your main DPS weapon, but There are several decent proc augments available for use. A few easy ones that come to mind are:

    Frost Blossom

    Stormwheel's Burning Debris

    Cooling Pad

    Mostly the reason behind this is if your going to do a melee burn you should also be running Imbued Ferocity to force these augments to proc every swing. If you are wearing a belt with Boon of The Seeress effect on it this will add even more damage (iirc somebody showed a parse of these forums indicating it was the best melee belt proc available in-game)

    (if you do not I would recommend getting one)

    Quick Conflagrant Belt

    is the newest tradeskill belt available for grabs

    Regarding the procs. I find that using Roaring Blades is typically better unless you are raiding (and consequently have multiple healers vs 1 tank - less chance of you dying). Roaring seems better for group content, plus it is always fun to show off a mini weapon shield tanking when/if the MT dies.

    I remember reading somewhere (i can't seem to recall if it was on these forums or my guild's forums) that the slower weapons originally start out doing more DPS than the lower delay weapons, but as of the time when Copsestalker's / Bosquestalker's Discipline was the best melee version I remember somewhere around the 20-30 second range where the faster weapons would suddenly start outparsing the slower weapons.

    SO you may want to check the faster delay weapons around 30 seconds, vs your higher level slower weapons around 30 seconds and see if that makes a noticeable difference for your specific parse. (it sounds like you prefer to BOW DPS)

    Note: try it with 19 / 20 / 21 delay weapons if you have them as i recall that being the best in temrs of damage vs delay compromise running these disciplines.
  14. roth Augur

    Copsestalker’s/Bosquestalker’s added a flat amount of damage bonus per hit.

    I think the new disc was their attempt to normalize the damage from the disc across weapon delays. I’m not sure though, that it succeeded.
  15. OrchardField Journeyman

    This was great! Yea, I prefer bow, I, so far do more with bow/dicho and a dot (a few summers as well) and not using any active AA than I do using the same spells and my best melee and using active AAs. There are some places, where in dungeons, where positioning limitation make it unsafe (agro) or impossible to maintain minimum bow distance, so for that, I’ve heard this method can get close (I’ve heard some even do more with fast melee than bow) And it does. Usually, the puller/tank know I need distance to rack up the dmg, so it’s not very often that I need to use melee, but I’d like to do the most I can in those places. Thanks!
  16. Brohg Augur

  17. Moldar Augur

    Oh yeah don't use that, glancing at that quickly it looked like burst of ice.

    My bad

    anything with a Direct Damage procs on it is going to be great. I know there are at least 2 items on the vendors in Tainted Ethernere West Karana Zone at the W camp (if you zone in from the guild hall it should put you right in the middle of the camp with the vendors in it).
  18. Brohg Augur

    highest damages I'm aware of are Venemous Tear & Siren's Demise ones from TDS

    honorable mention for lifesap ones Sigil of Thokk & Blood Draining Spike