Will Rogues ever get an update on TLPs?

It's unfortunate, but Rogues really get the short end of the stick in this game, especially on TLPs. Completely worthless in classic, decent but not great in Kunark with epic, decent in Velious. But they're absolutely destroyed by monks in all 3 eras, and monks have actual utility, whereas Rogues have none. Then you get to Luclin/PoP where Rangers start to do top DPS so Rogues slide further, and eventually Berzerkers just destroy them for the rest of the game.

It would be nice if Rogues could get an update on TLPs so there is actually a valid reason to choose one over a monk.

The "update" comes in Kunark after you obtain your epic.

Also I wonder if the conventional wisdom on how bad rogues are is overblown. This is just 2nd hand info but I was in a Hole Sword camp group as a 45 rogue with no haste belt and was told by someone in group that I was parsing about the same as the monk. Maybe he was just trying to make me feel good or maybe rogues aren't as bad in classic as advertised. Either way it hasn't really seemed to affect me getting groups.

Back when the game was played for fun; when eyes weren't glued to parses, and classes had identity, Rogues were.......ok they were still bad. But just do it for fun ok?

theyll get an update every 3 months.

While we're on the topic i'd 100% rather have a rogue in my group than a wizard.

"bUt ThEyRe StEaLiNg AlL uR pLaTzz"

I think people forget that rogues have more utility than they realize. Even though naked corpse runs are a thing of the past, I've still been asked to do many corpse drags for the puller or even other groups to help them get rezzed. Having the most OP invis in the game has its benefits. I've also been needed to unlock doors in both Unrest and The Hole. We also have one of the easiest if not the easiest epic to obtain. Do I wish our dps was boosted some in classic to bring us in line with what you'd expect from a pure dps class? Sure. But being a bit underpowered in that department hasn't dissuaded me from playing one and I still enjoy it.

From what I can see, the issue with Rogues on TLP Classic is there are no great, trade-able piercing weapons to be had. There's no poker with a ratio matching a Smoldering Brand and the dps output of a Yak because 75 DD procs is a lot of damage back then. That Proc matters until you get your epics. Off the top of my head from auctions I've seen on Rizlona this week. Serrated Bone Dirk, Gloomwater Harpoon and Polished Steel Dirk are what people are looking for. None of those are as good as other weapon types and it hurts rogues until they get an epic.

While that's true, once you are lvl 46, you can get Eyerazzia 10/24 and the Shrieking Ahlspiess 9/27 pretty easily. But yeah, while lower level it is hard to find a good primary piercer. Most end up using a Dragoon Dirk 6/23 until they get to the planes or can afford a Serrated Bone Dirk or Polished Steel Dirk.

Rogues aren't nearly as bad as everyone says, especially when Kunark launches. Some people are min max munchkins to use a D&D term.

They'll say wizards suck also - but many a camp have been defended due to a wizard being present.

I see rogues parsing near the top in Sky.. don't think they're THAT bad. Yes, they aren't great but in Kunark things begin to change. I see rogues still parse near the top from then on out.

One other thing I have seen which can really affect rogue dps is groups with charm pets. I have seen this quite a bit myself. Many tanks position themselves opposite the charm pet such that the mob is flipping back and forth as aggro changes. This is a rogue's worst nightmare and will affect their DPS significantly if they can't get backstabs in consistently.

Any aggro ping ponging and a rogue's dps drops significantly, especially in the early expansions. With AAs it gets better. And yes Rogues do get much much better. My rogue on Phinny during TBS helped a cleric with his box monk do the monk's 2.0 final fight. It was just the 3 of us and the Monk wasn't even level 70. I tanked and dps'd that raid mob down practically by myself. Also in Secrets of Faydwer(level 80), fully buffed and using all the clickies I had, using Backstab Disc, hit a triple critical backstab with each hit doing just over 20K hp of damage for a total of 60K hp of damage on a yellow con mob.

On raids, I normally was doing at least 10% of total damage against the raid boss mobs. So there is light at the end of the tunnel. Rogues get a boost in Planes with the really big boosts coming in GoD and OoW.

change bard lockpick back down to 50 or 75 whatever it was in real classic..that'll help some

Rogues trade some top end damage for utility
Pickpocket is something folks completely discount, you shouldn't its a solid money maker still.
Sneak + Hide is amazing for being able to make your away anywhere, even some mobs that /con scowling, don't see the sneak portion. Corpse runs might be diminished but if you've wiped in fear you're still going to want a rogue or 2 for getting folks back on their feet.
Pick lock - they should've never given this to bards in classic at high skill caps (IMO give em an AA to unlock the high skill cap in Luclin) But still, handy to have.

Rogues damage is not "weak" as everyone keeps pounding on, its that monks are overpowered and have not been adjusted down to their "classic" levels, thus get the benefit of insane ratios and attack scaling that rogues don't get until much later. Rogues are the most gear dependent class, monks can be nakked except for a haste item and do 90% of their optimal damage.

Basically - to fix rogues, nerf monks. (Or just give rogues a higher backstab multiplier in classic.)

I think you overrate a couple of those things Kiaro. Pickpocket really isn't much of a money maker unless you are picking Hill Giants in Rathe or something. You can pickpocket for a couple of hours in most places and maybe net 10-20p if lucky. As for sneak/hide, it is the most OP invis in classic. And scowling doesn't matter. I can get by all mobs that can't se through both regular invis and invis to undead. Can also sneak behind mobs that can see through those. However, gargs and bats in Lguk, bats in Solb and just many random mobs throughout the Hole are a problem. Just last night I couldn't even safely sneak past light blue mobs at the Hole entrance because when conned "you suspect this being can see you" message is received often. But yes, almost anywhere else it is amazing. However sneaking without sow is tedious.

Here are a few suggestions to help rogues in classic have a bit more utility without "breaking" the game.

1) Indoor tracking.- Rogues are supposed to be great indoor scouts so not sure why this was never given to them. Even if it was a smaller radius than what rangers and druids get, it would be nice and a small bonus to a group inviting a rogue.

2) Out of combat stun - Would be kind of nice if a rogue who was not on hate list could sneak/hide behind a single mob for a 15-30 second "KO" stun to help lock down a mob on a rough pull or help bring a broken charm pet under control. Wouldn't be strong enough to be used as a CC on pulls of multiple mobs though as you can only do one mob, once, before you are on the hate list of all mobs in camp.

3) Group sneak/hide - would be cool if we could put whole group into "sneak/hide" mode for purposes of moving past mobs such as in Lguk to get to a camp. Its too slow to really be able to just keep hopping camps but would allow a rogue to help a tank or other char without invis get to a camp or entire group to slowly sneak to a deep dungeon camp spot.

4) Frontal Backstab - Now I know we get this later on and I'm not actually asking for that skill earlier. But what would be nice is if instead of hitting for 1HP on a frontal and having the BS cool down start, how about just giving us the same message we get now about "need to be behind mob to backstab" but no cool down so its still available as soon as we do get proper positioning and it isn't an entire backstab lost, just delayed.

5) See invis - How about letting rogues see invis while in "sneak/hide" mode. Not super useful but is something that could be beneficial in a place like Solb if a group wants to try and catch the Guano Harvester up.

These are a few things I've thought of before that seem to me to not really poach on any other class skills but could make rogues a bit more useful to groups in Classic while our dps is not up to par.

Yeah then you realize you're both doing the same DPS as a shaman pet.

But yeah how "bad" Rogues are outside of Classic is massively overblown. Rogues are never in a bad spot after Classic and in many expansion are the top sustained DPS although they never get to really shine when it comes to burst DPS.

I think people forget that Everquest has never been a balanced game. Go play wow if you want every class DPS to be perfectly balanced.

@Kiaro, I agree giving bards such a high picklock and disarm traps from day one does hurt Rogues usefulness in the early expacs. As to your idea on how to fix rogues. Monks will always out dps Rogue. Doesn't matter if they are level 45 or level 85 with 8,000 AAs. The reason is the game capped the BS damage amount.

@Dyzalot, most the things you suggest are already in the game, you just have to wait for that expac to unlock. Frontal Backstab is an AA (Chaotic Backstab) you get with luclin. out of combat stun you at level 76 as the Discipline Waylay.

The game isn't going to do changes just so it is easier in original eq, when what you ask you will eventually get. FYI, we get a mez at level 71, we get a self only evac AA in PoR.

Yes in classic and the early expacs, rogues are weak, you just have to play through it knowing come GoD everything changes and you are at the top of every parse.

Meh. I didn't even ask for frontal backstab. And what about indoor track plus see invis?

Frontal backstab is the only change I want, and have wanted in the eleventy years I have played a rogue. I don't need 100% dps from the front, but I'd like more then 40-60% (fluctuates around).

I think people forget that classic expansion design was terrible and somehow people want modern class balance in these expansions.