Why is necro twice the dps of other classes?

It was maybe meant to be a nerf but turned out to be a huge buff to some DoT classes. Less spell slots required, so more DoT lines can be used together. The more DoT lines, the stronger, and NEC+SHD do have the most of them: Disease, poison, fire, magic. Why do they have a fire DoT line at all ? Are they minions of Solusek Ro or CT / Innoruuk / Bert ?... Never made sense as they cannot serve Solusek Ro. The devs that do make the balance changes should start to play EQ instead of being theoreticans and bad mathematicans.

Bard and enchanter. Necro is not that complicated, even when being a more complex class than most players are aware about, as they just have to choose several spell sets for diifferent fight lenghts. The necromancer class is not powerfull because of outstanding players, it is just that the class can make the most benefit of twisting several DoT lines. I had seen bad and average players pwning good players (like a magician) just because they played a necro and made use of DoT stacking. That was all what they did.

The longer the fight, the more efficient is a necro, as long as it does not run oom. Raids do have loooong fights. It does not require a genius player for that, it is just simple math, but math can be impressive for a non genius player . 30 sec fights are not a necro's thing. High HP mobs as in newer expansions do also benefit the necro and a few other DoT classes.

See that necro doing the twist again ? Twisting DoTs again.

hehe at the end of phinny we had 2 necro's left that did about 40% of the damage of the raid, with 35ish in raid.

now on live though, necro, rogue, bst, berserker, wizzie all compete for top spot, with mage, monk close by ( we dont have enough support to give everyone full support, which is also of course a large problem in a tlp guild in the later stages).

Do TLP have the old buff caps? I didn't know this was still an issue.

Between the type of encounter and the skill of the other players mentioned not at the top of the parses as others have said, that's where the disparity is. DoT classes will do great on mobs with high HPs, particularly if they can cross-dot. Melees and nuke classes will do better on low HP mobs or anything where a burst will have an substantial impact, but still do well on high HP mobs.

If someone's (other than priests/tanks) doing 50% of the damage of someone else, maybe the person doing low damage needs to figure a few things out and talk to the other members of their class to see how they can improve. Aside from deaths during events, there's no real reason why someone would be that far below other than skill and ability.

TLP is not a seperate game. All mobs have a buff cap on them. However at low levels, many classes don't have many spells/abilties yet, so competition for buffs slots may play out differently. TLP is absolutely nothing like original eq, so I cannot speak to necros and buff slots on teek.

Buddy, different people find different things hard/challenging. Your statement on all other classes vs necromancers might be true for you but not for the game as a whole. Personally I didn't find necro hard when I was weaving 20+ DoTs constantly so I certainly don't consider them hard now and I did it with 0 keybinds.

The OP is asking about a certain era and in that certain era Necros are very well ahead of a majority of the DPS classes in several of those raids. Regardless of if they are top/mid/bottom tier players. It's the same song and dance we hear about Monks for the first 12 expansions or whatever. On Live things are a lot closer than they used to be and it does factor a ton more into player skill now, but that's not what was being asked for the era.

In the role of DPS, BRD and ENC do not remotely compare to NEC in difficulty or complexity. In overall roles and responsibilities, sure, we do a lot, but specifically in DPS, absolutely not. You have over simplified the job of a NEC so much that it makes me wonder if you have ever even seen an exceptional NEC flex. The difference in the parses of the best and worst NEC in a raid is nothing less than impressive. I can't think of any other class that can have such a large spread in performance. And if we really want to get down to the nitty gritty, in TOV which was all undead, NEC could do everything an ENC could do. TOV really showed which NECs truly knew their class inside and out. The spread on a NEC showing up vs a truly exceptional NEC is probably the biggest potential gap on any class in EQ.

The prompt was about complexity and not about DPS.

Huge performance spreads are usually the result of power. More powerfull classes do have a larger spread than less powerfull classes. The necro is OPed against undead mobs beside all the other content, it has not much to do with players skills. Necro vs undead = ENC + DPS * ~4.

Context is important. The prompt is about optimizing dps (that's the entire discussion of the thread) and the complexity involved with it. Which would fall to Necromancers. You're strawmanning.

They were talking about spreads between the same classes. Not the overall between all the classes. In which, player skill is the determining factor

This is also wrong. Necro's have great utility when it comes to Undead mobs. They don't actually excel as they do not really have a ton of bonus damage to undead mobs like a Paladin does.

All of this, yes, thank you.

To clarify, as I understand my comment may have been a little blurry, I was talking about the complexity of DPS in all instances, except when I mentioned Undead in TOV. In that instance, I was talking about the wide range of NEC abilities against undead, not DPS. NEC are basically the ENC of the undead. They can charm, mez, slow, paci, etc the undead. While in all other context I was talking about the complexity of NEC DPS, in regard to my comments about NEC in TOV, I was speaking of class complexity as a whole, in which case, the NEC comes close to the ENC in utility. TOV let truly exceptional NEC stand out, not because of DPS which was mostly unchanged, but in TOV, some NEC performed as well as ENC and proved that had knowledge of what their class was fully capable of.

I quoted you, Randomized, but I do realize from your last lines in the quote that you and I are on the same page on what I was getting at there.

I dunno. Why don't you try it and report back.

This TBH. Yes necro is easy compared to many things IRL and many things in other games because EQ is easy and slowly paced. But for every necro doubling the parse of the next highest DPS, there are 2 somewhere in the middle of the pack because they are not great players. There are also many more who quit sometime in Velious when they realized that monks can out parse them by turning on auto attack, that wizards go boom with 3-4 spells, and that near-peak maging can be accomplished with 1 button.

Also as Sancus said, the dot revamp super charged us at low levels They should probably fix that. But that's a temporary situation across the expansions, and one that still requires a (relatively) skilled and attentive player to execute.

- It wasn't a nerf. It was a cleanup of a clunky system. That necros had been asking for for years.
- It resulted in FEWER dots being cast by necros, not more.
- Deity has nothing to do with how your damage spells behave. Mages use mostly fire, but can worship Inny, Bertoxx, Tunare, and so on, depending on your choice of race. If that isn't a problem for you, neither should the reverse situation.

Show me where the necro hurt you

They don't. It isnt. Francisco seems to have missed the numerous dot slot cap increases.

Please sir, may I have some more?

No, you are the one who is strawmanning. Your strawman argument is that the prompt and the thread is about optimizing DPS, which is not true. It is about that the necro is doing to much DPS and I was only correcting the focus which got shifted away by Vumad, which is the opposite of a strawman argument. Our side discussion does refer to this post:

https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq...s-of-other-classes.299669/page-2#post-4329585

In that post is the prompt (to which I replied):

Obvious that you (Randomized) are only here for trolling again, as you do not follow the discussion and just making wrong accusations.

Such spreads do exist inbetween all classes (like NEC vs NEC), and player skills are the main factor there, beside other factors that got ignored so far. Like equipment, progressions power, spell ranks, and others. It never was about comparing the spread between classes (like NEC vs WAR). The total spread inbetween the necro class is still relatively larger than the total spread of a weaker class, when comparing the classes, just because the necromancer is more powerfull (DPS) at all.

They still do have bonuses vs undead mobs which the ENC does not have. Either in DPS or in mana efficiency. And as the ENC DPS is much smaller, also because the ENC has less different DoT lines, the necro can roughly quadruple the DPS output of the ENC. Necro is a DPS and tank class with undead CC, while the enchanter is general / pure CC with little DPS and a weak pet. ToV and CoV were bad expansions because they favoured classes with undead bonuses way to much, while the ENC has basically only CC to offer. They were perfect expansions for the necromancer which got benefited maybe even more than the paladin or the cleric classes because of CC.

The holes you dig yourself when trying to convince yourself you're not wrong.
Vumad discussed the DPS of Necro's and stayed on topic. You're the onne who shifted away by not understanding the question asked, in which Vumad corrected your misunderstanding. You're still the one strawmanning, whether accidental or not.

Yes, and the post references the DPS side of necro's and stays on the topic of Necro DPS multiple times. So how you got the idea that it was referencing all spells is beyond me.

Shorthand of what he's saying is: Necromancers have multiple spell set ups for a lot of different situations which leads to a lot of key binds, and on top of weaving between scenarios, you have to keep track of what mobs have what spells on them. Bard and Enchanter run AoE's. You don't worry about how many mobs have Mez on them, you just mez them all until mez is no longer needed. You're not swapping spell sets between scenarios for DPS reasons, you just use what you have (Necro's swap).

Necro's have a lot more micromanagement when DPS is involved than any other class.

...you can't be serious...lol when discussing such things as spreads between classes, it's assumed all things equal. The only changing variable is player skill. Give 2 different people the same Necro with the same gear and that's the spread that's being discussed lol not comparing Raid Necro's to t1 group geared Necro's

Sure, but you weren't comparing 1 to 1. You said a Necro = Enchanter + 4 DPS when it comes to undead mobs. That's blatantly wrong.

Enchanter + any 4 dps will far surpass what a single Necro will put out in terms of DPS.
Watch an Enchanter and 4 Paladins go ham on an undead mob lol and try to watch a necro keep up.
An Enchanter + Rogue + 3 Berserkers
An Enchanter + Berserker + 3 Rogues
An Enchanter + Druid + 3 Wizards
An Enchanter + Mage + Mage+ Wizard + Beastlord
The list is nearly infinite.

Trust me when I say you don't want to continue your litany here. Especially when you started off by saying the DoT consolidation was a nerf lol

But still more DoT lines can be casted now, and each of them more powerfull than before the revamp. Only fewer DoTs that had stacked in the past, which do get overwritten by the highest spell version now. Spell versions that are much more powerfull than in the past.

Still does not make sense roleplay wise that it can use fire damage spells. NEC and SHD just got favoured to much with four "elements". About all other classes are limited to 1-3. The class must had been the favourite class of a former dev during it's creation: Very soloable, very powerfull, very flexible with spell elements, afk mode and low risk to die because of FD, enchanter for undead mobs, etc.

All things equal ? Are all players equal ? Where should the spread come from ? There never was and willl be equality. Not in player skills, not in gear, not in progression. There is not a single variable, there are many variables instead. See, you are a theoretician while I am a practician. Even if the only variable is the player skill, you cannot proof me wrong.

No, I wrote:

Do you know the difference between a plus sign and a multiplication sign ? It does mean that the necro can do about four times more DPS than the enchanter while having similar or even the same CC tools vs undead mobs.

You should first learn how to read correctly or grab new goggles. That alone could reduce your youthly protest posts towards me by about 75% and saving us both a lot time.