Why don't warriors get knight 1handers?

Discussion in 'Tanks' started by Mrjon3s, Oct 15, 2012.

  1. shiftie Augur

    hyperbole much?

    This is almost completely false. Warriors have been generating damage, good damage at that... since day 1 with respect to all other classes. Their position within the dps hierarchy matters.

    Just because someone isn't a dps class doesn't mean their dps is irrelevant. It might be irrelevant to you, but that is just because you are being obtuse. Should warriors do dps? yes. How much? That is for the devs to decide.

    It can however be surmised that warriors will not end up on knight ratio 1hers because there is a dps hierarchy and that would most certainly skew their relative position within that framework.
  2. wingz-83 Augur

    There has to be a minimum standard :p
  3. Abazzagorath Augur

    Warriors don't have knight 1h or 2h ratios because its simply not warranted.

    Not much else to say about it.
  4. Whulfgar Augur

    Warriors are the weapon master's of all classes. This and the higher mitigation verses other tank classes is what sets them apart.

    Now having said that, its sad to see warriors having to be forced to use the sword an board mentality , rather then not upping their mitigation to mirror the healing abilities of either the Shadow Knight or the Pally.

    I'd rather have increased mitigation and be able to duel wield, rather then being forced to sword an board it .. And for those that did not know, duel wielding for Warriors = thee losest DPS we can push bar none ..
  5. shiftie Augur

    Would you like them to recode the game so that shield ac is not as good as it is currently with regards to itemization and functionality. While also simultaneously nerfing shield block/shield specialist?

    It is because of all of that, that shields are equipped. The ac return on a shield I believe to be hardcoded. The only reason warriors were not using shields from the outset was because of poor aggro generation, and lack of spells. As soon as aggro generation became comparable and there was no net aggro loss while holding a shield it opened up the door for warriors to be a sword and board class as well. Shield specialist modifying the dps of the class was just icing on that cake.

    There would be a wild amount of work that would need to be done to separate a warrior from a shield at this point and some of that would be to find a way to give the same ac returns while holding an offhand weapon while also increasing parry rate while the offhand is equipped.

    It is far easier for sony to not mess with something (shield ac returns) that is tangled in spaghetti code and to tell warriors to just deal with it. You made your bed now sleep in it. Expecting to get knight level ratios via itemization to couple with your knight level ratio via AA skills is quite a bit of comedy though.
  6. Marjelle New Member

    I dont mind to sword and board when I tank, to me thats just fine because of the aa's we already have when we equip the shield. What I want is that DPS need to be put back into the duel wield that is equal to rangers dps when they duel wield, so when I am not tanking at least I can DPS with the group and I am helping the group take down the mobs ( I think that would take care of the feeling of warriors being picked over from groups that are chain pulling), I for one like to take a break from tanking mobs and just MASS DPS them down when duel wielding.
  7. Brosa Augur

    #1 not equal - Warrior superior "tanks" in the group game over sks and pallies
    #2 not equal - SK Over powers in burn dps over warrior/pally
    #3 not equal - pallies suck plain and simple because they don't live up to warriors survivability and never put out the dps like sk unless the mob is undead.
    I know this because I see it all the time. My group game Warrior main (max lvl + aa) tanks content regularly with ease that a sk/pally (max lvl + aa) might tank just fine one encounter and get toasted the next encounter. Warrior wins on taking a beating. SK wins dps. Pally takes their ball and goes home (or makes a good patch healer for an SK).

    With that said back to the subject. Warrios tank better with Sword+Board. Warriors dps better with Sword+Board. Hmmmm still get out dpsed by another tank class that equips thier 2HS to DPS better. Why do Warrios not get better dps with duel wield and 2H?
  8. Ronak Augur


    [IMG]
  9. Reikou New Member

    Again I say, give me dual wield when I want to dps and you can have my Knight ratio one handers. Until then, suck it up that warriors have lower dps power and superior tanking power.
  10. Dre. Augur

    The same % of blocks that shield block provides could be granted via AA for offhand parry when dual wielding. A similar AA that boosts riposte for 2H also. All melee classes should get these IMO.

    The AC returns probably aren't as big of a deal when considering weapons tend to have much less AC than a shield. My DW secondary for example is 63ac vs a 230ac shield, so I'd gain back about a quarter of the rac I lose currently by taking off my shield. While every little bit helps, if I'm in a situation where I can forego ~167rac and still be survivable, that extra quarter probably isn't a deal breaker.

    Also, this is only from a purely defensive standpoint. Agro and DPS need to be considered also. Dual Wield is still good agro but dead from a DPS perspective until it gets its version of Shield Specialist / Merciless Blade to artificially inflate the DPS of those stances (which were both terrible decisions IMO) At this point I think we'd need to see offhand triple/flurry before DW makes a resurgence. (In which case it would beat 1h by around 18% DPS with significantly more swing and proc agro)

    2H is easier. Riposte mod and a HH proc would make it a real choice in terms of DPS (Berserkers can have it too, trade for decapitate? :) ) Maybe we should open up the discussion about overcap AC applying to a primary weapon slot...
  11. Galin Augur

    Which server are you from? In case mine ever gets merged into yours I can just be prepared for the terribleness of the knights there.
    Darchon_Xegony likes this.
  12. shiftie Augur

    Hdex is already modding parry and dex. How much can you raise it? This also doesn't take into account that mobs strikethrough our defenses in which case a hit lands and AC/shielding/vie/rune are your last resort to mitigate that damage as a warrior. Anything that passes the defensive checks and lands, my ac potentially lowers the DI spread so that mobs are hitting lower than the top DI's. Granted Wars have the innate DI-1 but ac is still going to smooth out the damage spikes.

    I'd much rather see a balanced proc rate of a 1-2 tic weapon shield like proc with a DW set up (exactly like rangers sheltering thunder) that only works when DW is equipped. This could be solved by itemization or AA/discs. If the devs put a war only secondary weapon with that proc on it, I'd be willing to bet wars would use it over a shield. It would make it a real parrying dagger. (though they'd have to stop the proc rate with rage of rallos somehow to avoid perma parry for the duration.)

    Ranger survival is randomized, but they also have a relatively low innate divine intervention AA (this would be something I'd also like to see on warriors in all set ups). Get low health and a burst of health procs with a heal over time component.


    With all that said I just don't see them increasing war mitigation with a second sword equipped it is too much work to solve a problem in flavor and itemization. Who knows maybe you'll have some luck in the new AA irc chats Elidroth was planning on opening up to the public.
  13. Darchon_Xegony Augur

    They just need to return to dual-wielding warriors IMO. Shield warriors are boring.

    I would be very depressed to group with the knights / paladins on Brosa's server... However I would like to raid with this fellow on my paladin. I think it would be fun.
  14. Dre. Augur

    Assuming you meant parry and riposte. Exactly the block % of Shield Block.

    I'd prefer if we were to receive an ability like this it would be independent of weapon stance. We have Blade Guardian already which is somewhat similar (procs parry buff on berserker frenzy when the BG is active)

    Self healing is out of archetype IMO but some sort of "mitigation increases inversely to HP%" effect might be interesting.

    We'll see. Overcap AC for secondary weapons would be really low on my list if I ordered by desirability.
  15. shiftie Augur

    I did oops. I'm terrible at math so I'm probably wrong especially with things like probability feel free to correct me. Parry and shieldblock are two different checks. RNG does its thing at x% for parry and shieldblock then also checks mob strikethrough. If successful then parry - if failed check next - if successful then block. Could increasing the parry rate improve mitigation beyond what the the probability of a success vs checking against both parry and block?

    Flipping 1 coin it can either be Heads (H) or Tails (T) P(Heads flip) 1(outcomes satisfied) /2 (possible outcomes) = 50%
    Flipping 2 coins it can either be (H)(H), (H)(T), (T)(T) P(head Flip) 2(outcomes satisfied)/ 3(possible outcomes) = 66%

    I don't know what the success rate of a possible parry would be to overcome the probability of the two checks avoiding the hit outside of a 100% parry rate nullifying the need for the second check of block. With the way EQ works and the chance for a mob to strike through a successful parry which renders the success rate 8% or boosted 50% w/e pointless, I think that having a second check of shieldblock which increases the probability of an avoided hit would be a greater overall mitigation. This is why gaining shieldblock (at the least 1 rank) was such a huge deal to begin with. I don't think you can simply overcome that just by increasing the parry rate of an offhand, the only way to do that would be to add in another check while dual wielding - we'll call it "DWcozawesome" to run the gauntlet of checks to offset the probability boost of shield block.

    If the mod isn't "set up" restricted all it ends up doing is favoring more mitigation while using a shield and does nothing for actually creating a situation where DW is preferred or at least an option.

    Outside the archetype or not. This is an area your class is failing. Either you want to make up ground or you don't. People have no issue with promised spells or potions being actually cast by the warrior (so much so that you got crits added last beta to be more competitive). I feel like that is just placing an arbitrary restriction on what is possible for your class. It isn't like anyone is suggesting you actually start casting your own heals hi2u "inner rejuvination". Just merely procing them at low health to help offset bad rounds where you can't actually control the situation outside of hitting things like flash or increasing your max hp etc.
  16. Dre. Augur

    A "second" chance to parry/riposte (replacing chance to shield block) was more in line with what I was thinking. Mob can strikethrough regardless of defense type, yes?

    This was mostly for riposte and 2H to increase DPS, it just seemed natural to extend parry to DW.
    I've thought about this idea some more, a defensive proc 1-tick parry buff would increase with # of mobs and solve your RoRZ=autoparry concern as well.

    This combines well with some of my mitigation ideas to give DW an edge against multiple weaker mobs... arguably our weakest area of tanking. This could cement DW as our choice stance for multiple pull/fast grind groups and potentially even bring us into the swarming game on weak enough mobs.
    Absolutely an arbitrary restriction and I am happy to draw that line. Other Warriors may disagree, but I feel there are plenty of other ways to make up ground without sacrificing class identity in this way.

    Knights = mitigate, then heal. Warriors = don't heal but mitigate more.

    Don't confuse my disagreement on a couple of points as my not being thankful for you presenting ideas, I really do appreciate them and hope you continue to do so.
  17. shiftie Augur

    offensive procs can be set for fixed PPM allowing for an expected level of mitigation.

    Defensive proc scaling of 1-tic weaponshield would be wildly overpowered, I highly doubt you'd be able to even try to present that point to the devs. They'd have to add in extra effects to make it so you cannot constantly have the recourse buff up, akin to what they did for the old paladin ward of tunare, druid reptile skin and sk rune ability which now have mediocre returns in a swarm. One should think they've learned their lesson here.

    At which point an offensive proc restricted to the DW set up makes sense. With a 1 tic proc off of swings you gain nothing from bandoliering back to S/B b/c it would serve no purpose as you aren't getting hit and you would want the DW set up on the ready to reproc the ability once the first one fades. Making a constant out of the DW setup.

    A defensive proc that you could put on while also using S/B I personally think is a bit ludicrous, and I'd be vehemently against it because it just boosts things in a rather silly way.
  18. Dre. Augur

    I agree it would be OP without swing counters. Also, yes, DW only.
  19. Oakenn Tigerspirit Augur


    LOLZ I almost had to call 911 laughing so hard
  20. Abazzagorath Augur

    I...don't even know where to start.

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