Discussion in 'Time Locked Progression Servers' started by eqfanforlife, Dec 13, 2023.
PoP and beyond you start being rewarded for pressing more than 1-2 buttons.
Sure if you raid.
And now ya do!
I think there should be a differentiation between people who dislike post PoP content and those that don't stick with a TLP through PoP. If someone quit EQ back in the aughts EQ for WoW, they likely never experienced post nerf Gates or any of the excellent level 70 content. Those are the people captured by nostalgia and are either on Agnarr or quit after experiencing Time/planar progression and seeing the sights.
For the TLP crowd that rerolls every new server, though, PoP is an impossibly long slog where rather than release PoP/LdoN/LoY all at once DPG creates an immense content desert. Early EQ derived most of it's difficulty from obscurity, not knowing respawn timers, spawn points, and aggro radiuses. Much of the TLP appeal for the 'hardcore' crowd is trying to be as fast and efficient as possible. Selo was an incredible server where you were either pushing to catch up or trying to get by with as little as possible because there was no time to worry about which alt got a Time BP. There's only so many Coirnav/Fenin/Quarm splits you can show up for before it becomes a drag and you're only there to collect dkp and hope TA drops.
PoP literally has/had no group content, and most zones gated behind flags.
You have to remember when PoP released, people had to buy the expansion - and most really weren't well geared (other than the handful of raiding guilds in each server).
People bought GoD when it released and it massacred most, in every GoD zone.
DoN had group play missions, DoDH had shrouds and missions - but what EQ offered to the average player, who had an hour or two an evening, was literally very little PoP onwards.
Now, that was when these expansions were current.
On TLPs, there is a lull in the 70 level with meh expacs - that, and PoP burns people out with all the flagging and raiding. Sure, Time doesn't take forever like Vex Thal (with it's trash), but still takes time (heh).
Lot's of people like the game post PoP, where did this fake news come from?
While some will say getting the flags were the game...and okay...I can sorta see the angle, and I did PoT flagging in current ERA when it released....I also saw a lot of people stop logging in....they just bought an expansion and it was a chore to get to the content they feel they already paid for...
GROUP CONTENT....flags VERY BAD
And I always loved Vex Thal...most guilds just never want to go back to VT because of the long duration trash clears....lol
Yes, TLP people in a raid guild do. The fact that tlp servers aways shrivel down to the hardcore raiders only says something though
Indeed. Now imagine trying to get those flags with only group gear. It was basically impossible. You had to either be a raider, or amongst a bunch of raiders to get them. In retrospect, I'd say PoP was the worst expac for eq. The entire design and expac was only for raiders. You could spend weeks in the lowber tier pop zones (assuming you could get there, which most couldn't) and never see any gear drop, much less win it. There is WAY WAY WAY more group loot now than than there was pre-tlp. Heck, even the "group armor" required raids in bot to get. Which reqired multiple raids to get to itself.
The damage and broken design of PoP just didn't sink in until gates when WoW released and so many left. However I would bet alot of people were already leaving by that point anyways. By then the last interesting group content was still velious/luclin and rather stale. LDON was stale on release, incredibly boring. I see how it was a nice idea, but it got boring SUPER fast. Also horribly designed. My guild didn't wanna do LDON raids because we we had been pushed to a size of 72, and much smaller raids would cause WAY to many interpersonal problems. Then the gates disaster came out. Even putting aside the lack of level increase, the difficulty was based around everyone being in potime gear. That 2-3 lvl increase they were planning (it was never 5) wouldn't have mattered a moment for people in group gear.
Imagine walking into gates with group gear? Having a max of 30-50hp on a peice of gear instead of 180-230. Having weapon ratios that were good for raiders back in velious. Heck, some group weapons didnt even have stats on them yet. The fact that the game let group play wither for years is what killed it. Everything wrong with the game has been a continuation of the PoP design. Look at live, the paltry group missions are poorly stripped down raids. They won't even take the time to make original content for group players anymore.
Roleplaying goes away after PoP.
Goes away when people know what to do and everything too in this game.
Your not exploring anymore, like the old EQ.
Your just working, doing a job, its work not fun anymore.
Camping this named 50 hours for the item. Next camp that named 50 hours. No fun, just work.
Its not, whoa fungus grove this zone is really nice, lets explore, lets have fun.
Nothing down there, nothing here, nothing there, go here, and 50 hour camp.
Thats just part of the roleplaying that went away, but the other is like buffing people, interacting with people, and what not. It goes away PoP.
I’m not sure you have any idea what you’re talking about when you reference role playing when you talk about obscurity and scarcity. If you need to be lost in the woods to enjoy a game then a TLP, where by definition the content is not new, might not be your bag. People left during PoP for a number of reasons, but a lack of “roleplaying” definitely wasn’t one of them.
I think every TLP (perhaps with the exception of Oakwynd now given a few issues), more people actually get past PoP and find out later xpacs can be really fun. Sure, there are some duds, but I'd say I enjoyed more xpacs than I didn't. Fortunately, if it's a dud, you get a new xpac in 8-12 weeks.
For GoD specifically, ironically, for those complaining about redoing TLPs over and over b/c of the missed travel, the challenge, needing to be raid geared, etc....GoD is actually the expansion for you after being in the fishbowl of Plane of Tranquility during PoP. People still think you need full Time gear to be successful in GoD, but that's really not the case anymore. Even if you just did a lot of LDONs and most of your gear is from the LDON vendor going into GoD, you are not as far back as you might think from Elemental-level stats. And once you run Tipt you have a whole world of stuff to explore, group missions like Ikkinz, etc. Sure, raids are harder as we start to have a few mechanics beyond tank and spank, but there is most definitely not a lack of group content. They really retuned GoD and it's a great xpac now. Then after that you get Omens and new epics. Even if you are still not quite raiding guild you probably can snag some 1.5s.
I started playing EverQuest in 1999 when I was 12... Played through high school until 2004 when I graduated... WoW came out and everyone I knew that also played EQ went to WoW... The flagging process and death penalty/CR's were no longer an issue in WoW... it was refreshing.
The nostalgia just isn't there for a lot of players past PoP... Also, typically, a new TLP comes out not too long after PoP and if I am already half checked out, I and many others just take a break and wait for the new-new...
I play EQ TLPs cause no other game has the social grouping you get up to PoP. After PoP its mostly people boxing and then after Oow grouping with real people evaporates completely. The game changes dramatically from the original formula to modern games past PoP. Personally I dont want to look at rows of buttons to play EQ. I did one of the boost characters to 100th and I was like holy crap look at all those rows of buttons. And they changed the game to quest hubs and no camps later on in the game. I like the camps, you can kill stuff with your buddies and bs for a few hours without having to run around to do quest hubs. If I wanted to run around doing quest hubs, I would go play a game I only need one toon instead of boxing a 6 crew. I guess I will just keep doing the new TLPs every May and play till PoP, cause I like grouping with real people.
I've always thought it was the massive discrepancy between raid and group gear, consider ornate armor vs time armor, then think a casual in pop days was wearing a mix of ornate and random drops from namers in the earlier planes, then went and got wrecked by mobs hitting for 800+ in GOD, they realize they can't even play the new expansion and then wow drops, your options are go back and raid luclin to get the gear to raid pop to get the gear to group in GOD, or go play wow. This is what caused a lot of people to quit at GOD originally, and now they don't get the nostalgia feels from GOD that they did from earlier content. The worst part is this discrepancy doesn't even start to get really rectified until around the 85 content.
My theory is that it isn't so much the people don't like the game post PoP, it's that the longer the game goes on the more likely someone needs to take a break due to burn out or real life issues. On a regular server, especially post-pop once you take a break and miss an expansion or two you're basically SOL. Getting caught up is hard, getting geared up is hard. So when you lose people on a regular server they tend to stay gone.
Mischief's free trade (and you can see this to some extend on FV too) smoothed out those bumps. When you can gear easily it makes getting caught back up much easier. When you can get caught up easily you are more like to return to the server after your break and keep going. This keeps the population at healthy levels, which is also encouraging for those who are coming back (and those who are on the server are less likely to leave because their guild isn't imploding due to lack of recruits.)
Make it easier for folks to come back and get caught up and you have the makings of a healthy server in the long term. That is Mischief's lesson. They should take note of it.
My idea to help this is a vendor that sells older expansion gear for Tribute.
Or they could just remove required level on items.
You know in retrospect, I do see the point of how pop killed RP. PoP was the deathknell of faction in the game.
It used to be evil cities and good ones. PoK meant faction ceased to have ANY meaning. It was all kumbaya and lets forget there is any difference in character choice anymore.
EC Tunnel killed RP, then bazaar and nexus dug it a hole, then PoP with PoK with all the stones to books buried it....lol
For me, the "revamped"" Freeport was the straw that broke the camel's back. Factions stopped mattering around PoP of course but FP had the whole Militia Vs Knights thing.
In one revamp that got killed with PoR. Whoever did that deserves a medal, as you can't do it so thoroughly and so badly (steaming piles of turd - apparently meteor fragments) in one shot.
On topic, remember the most vocal people during classic/kunark/velious were raiders - esp the top raid guilds. It didn't help that Verant rolled out un-itemized raid mobs (seriously, no QA seems to be a mission statement). Along came PoP for the raiders - and the non-raiders bought pop and twiddled their thumbs in PoK for a while until the charm wore off.
Game devs need to understand that there will ALWAYS be that 2 to 4% playerbase who will MAX/Complete everything in the shortest possible calendar period. Catering only to that segment is bad business.
For example, if you make say levelling take 10x more exp than now for a new TLP, there will still be people who will hit 50 in a few days. You can't throttle that small segment and do all your content to keep them engaged/happy.
For EQ, that and the gap between raid and non-raid which kept on widening ensured that anyone returning even after a 2 year break would 99% quit again after being overwhelmed and being so far "behind" (auto-grant AA was a bandaid to that fatal wound)
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