Why does daybreak hate early xpac rogues?

Discussion in 'Melee' started by Kern, Aug 30, 2021.

  1. Kern New Member

    TLP EQ.
    Coming back to live EQ from 2002, I am really disappointed in how rogue dps is now blown away by monks. Rogues were top dps from Kunark forward. That made sense being the only pure dps class in early EQ. Not only are rogues second class dps to primal monks but our sneak/hide ability was nerfed until an AA in Luclin? Why? I just don't understand. Monks getting a 15/20 ratio primal in was understandable back in 2001-2002, they didn't have great dps and that sort of made up for it. They were a high survivability class with amazing pulling abilities and mid tier dps. Now disc timers are separated and tiger claw has a different cooldown than flying kick, giving them another damage ability to rotate. Monks don't have to position for backstabs and can basically just auto attack with a mash button to greatness. What happened? The one pure dps class in early EQ xpacs is a laughed at and I don't get it. There has to be something I'm missing.
  2. Kumiko_Lockjaw Elder

    It depends on the fight. Did the boss ping pong often and backstabs didnt happen?

    In short fights, monks innerflame disc will almost always parse them over rogues.

    In longer fights like Aaryonar 2 days ago i was able to be top1 and 10k dmg over 2nd highest, which was a monk and rank 3-5 monks too (47k to 37k).
    This was, due to Aary aura without avatar weapon procs.

    While Vindi and KT should be favored for monks, an AoW fight should again favor rogues.
    (granted you have very good weapons)

    After all it all is a guild/raid effort. Compairing dps at some bosses might be fun sometimes, but high RA and being a disciplined player is worth much more to any raid guild than being online and top parse every sunday :)

  3. Kern New Member

    I'm at every raid on every fight and one of the highest dkp members, not just showing up on Sunday.

    Even on long fights and using kinesthetics, deadeye, and duelist, the monks out parse all the rogues fairly easily. Seems you have to have the very top end weapons to be top parse vs epic fist primal monks. I'm still running the epic dagger because we haven't been lucky enough to see a Tunare or Vulak dagger drop yet.

    With a bard and all attack buffs I sit at 701 attack most fights. For example, did 60k to Final Arbiter where the monks are around 75k. Last Aaryoner I did 51k ,20k higher than our other rogues, with the top monk doing 61k.

    Mobs that flip around are annoying and I have to time backstabs. So, I know that a rogue would not do as well on those fights.

    The mob dies and the guild gets stronger and I'm happy for that. Guess I'll have to wait on a Vulak dagger to compare with epic fist monks.

    It feels like monks received a lot of love over the years and rogues did not. Also, I'm no advocate of nerfing any class. Just feels like rogues could use some love too.
  4. Skuz I am become Wrath, the Destroyer of Worlds.

    If you are comparing ANYTHING to Monk DPS on TLP you are making a huge mistake.

    Monk on TLP early on are simply massively overpowered due to changes made much later in the game, were you to compare TLP Rogues to Live Server Rogues from 1999 you would see that TLP Rogues blow Live Rogues from 1999 out of the water and then some.

    The changes to melee damage tables and spell damages tables mean TLP damage by all classes is vastly stronger than it was on live in 1999, that's among the reasons MoTM on raid mobs was required.

    However, Rogues having a damage profile that relies more upon backstab damage than their autoattack damage meant that they benefitted from the melee changes that boosted Monks out the wazoo the least of all of the melee classes, the Monks benefitted so much because of the way their auto-attack, skills, and discs work. Rogues (and later on Berserkers) can't even touch Monk DPS until around level 100 on TLP (unless the Monk is a slacker).

    None of this was because Devs hate Rogues though, that's just being silly.
  5. Kern New Member

    No doubt I can see the dps increase from 1999. Pure DPS classes need to be adjusted. There is no logical reason why a monk, utility class, should out dps a pure dps class other than something being overlooked by the devs. I sure they love people paying to play any class and don't "hate" them.

    Yes the post name is silly, it is meant to be. Would you be here commenting if the post name wasn't silly though? .

    Anyway, sounds like I've already spent too much time playing rogue to switch now. I'm loving the quality of life changes that most classes have received and love EQ in general. Things just seem broken from a dps class standpoint.

    Thanks for your info Kumiko. Thanks for stating the obvious Skuz.
  6. Skuz I am become Wrath, the Destroyer of Worlds.

    I would, posts on the same topic of discussion with far less silly titles have appeared many times, I commented on those (some would argue I comment on everything but thats an exaggeration).

    Some past suggestions for fixes have been:
    • Better Rogue-Weapon itemisation in early expansions, especially since backstab is now unlinked from weapon damage.
    • Low level discs on the same timers as later ones introduced to bridge the gap between Rogues and other dps
    • giving Rogues Kick at level 1.
    • nerfing Monks
  7. Kern New Member

    I wouldn't want to nerf monks. Just think there is something that could be done with backstab or discs or even adjust the ratio on the epic. I don't know. I top parsed on most everything in Kunark. Velious monk are kicking butt though. Wasn't sure if it was just the higher damage primal fists or something else. It's rather frustrating seeing the one pure dps class be outshined so much in Velious. Sounds the gap is only going to get wider as expansions release.
  8. Skuz I am become Wrath, the Destroyer of Worlds.

    Wasn't what I saw, from GoD onwards certainly the gap between Monk and Rog/Ber did gradually close and from RoF onwards the very good players of those 3 classes remained competitive for a while though most Monks started to get outshined a bit by Rog/Ber in RoS, really exceptional Monks can still give them a run for their money though.
  9. Kern New Member

    Just going by that. I didn't play past ldon back on live server.
  10. Kodachi Elder

    Chaotic stab being autogranted in classic is a change that really should be made. It has 0 impact on a rogues max potential dps, it just means you don't waste a button push if you aren't behind the mob and later on it helps close the gap between dps from the rear and from the front.

    Most of the issues I had with rogues in the OoW -> eras I played was not raw dps, but a lack of care going into the abilities and items our class were given. Not gonna do a big ol list but first and foremost is the TSS bp clicking the same poison the LDON gloves do but with a super short timer.
  11. Haze Journeyman

    With Time daggers, ATK cap, almost 20 heroic dex and the weighted stone of prowess aug in main hand, poison always applied, etc. I am just smoking parses on Aradune. Top 1-5 every fight.

    In a vacuum though? Our monks just delete everybody else off the top majority of the parses
  12. Kumiko_Lockjaw Elder

    Not long until Xmas and that time equip :)
  13. Shakara Augur

    Its not quite that bad. On Mangler in TBS Monks are not even Top DPS anymore its Bards, Wizards and Zerkers. Rogues are not doing too bad either and are quite competitive. Monks after GoD start to fall off (takes a while though) and other people catch up. However Kunark they are just nearly gamebreakingly broken.
  14. Skuz I am become Wrath, the Destroyer of Worlds.

    Your monks are slacking.
    WFSBelaar and Elyssanda like this.
  15. Accipiter Old Timer

    How do you mean? Hide and sneak are still there.
  16. Dre. Augur

    Revamp poisons would certainly help close the gap.
  17. fireworks New Member

    I think it is the complete opposite on live. I'd like to see some balance too.
  18. Gamal New Member

    Correct. The most primal function of Rogues using poison and applying it before a fight or during a fight is really lost now.

    Scaling the damage done has been laughable. A wizard can cast a nuke that does damage way more than a poison I crafted and had to work for? What a sad joke!

    Daybreak!!! Crank up the damage done by some poisons by 50X and see if more Rogues use them.
    Daybreak!!! Extend the DoTs to run 10X longer on poisons.

    Not going to hold my breath.
  19. Iven Augur

    Kick is on the same timer as backstab. A frontal backstab without chaotic stab is already working like kick so kick would be only usefull for rogues from lvl 1-9 which would be futile.

    Your mind does trick you. While the rogue never was the only pure DPS class (Wiz and monk were also pure DPS) today most classes are DPS beside other roles like healer and tank. Monk DPS got nerfed many times but is still OPed if it does more dmg than the rogue. However alot rogues do not make enough use of poison and may have chosen the wrong heroic stats. Class balance is a general problem today and the class roles have been softened to much. Especially the necro is out of control since many years as it is DPS + tank + self healer. SHD is similarly OPed.