Why do we still have time sinks on TLP servers?

Discussion in 'Time Locked Progression Servers' started by YesIndeedy, Jul 22, 2019.

  1. YesIndeedy New Member

    If you go through the history of TLPs, you will see a lot of very obvious call-outs by the player base resulting in some incredibly slow and sometimes non-existent responses from DB. They all largely center around one very obvious thing that no one directly addresses: Time Sinks.

    EQs entire premise revolved around time sinks. Everyone can come up with great examples of things in the game that are done specifically to get you to spend more time online. You know it every time you encounter one. My recent example was the location of the cleric epic npc's in Timorous Deep.

    There's a post on the front page of this forum right now about the Regal Band of Bathezid.

    Think about this. You need roughly a group to do the entire Spirit Wracked Cord quest.

    • You need to farm a ton of faction
    • Shady Goblin - 24 hour spawn
    • Angry Goblin - 3 day spawn
    • HS keys for 6 people
      • Chancellor is still rare, even though he can spawn anywhere and this was 'fixed' because of TLPs
      • Xalgoz is a 30 minute respawn in a zone you're not likely to see more than one pick of and you're not the only person that wants him
    • Drus's urn (3 day spawn and not guaranteed to drop)
    Why does anyone think this makes sense for an item that is useful for 2~ months (you will absolutely replace this in Velious).

    Then there's VP keys. This made sense when the expansion was the next 12 months of your life and it was all brand new. I mentioned this in a previous thread but it bears repeating - people consciously skip even bothering with VP keys because of the small window of time in which they are useful.

    Why is this accepted? Time sinks make NO SENSE anymore in the context of TLPs. All they do now is cause people to completely abandon specific sets of content in era because it requires far too much of their time to do so and any reward is useful for such a small period after obtained.
    We should be singing this song in unison folks. But, certain parts of this community also suffer from some kind of cognitive impairment and randomly try to justify these things. Any time anyone brings up fixing things like "Broken Golem" or [insert bottle neck here], there's a group of people that jump up and down.

    Example: "It's not supposed to be easy" - but there's nothing actually "difficult" about anything in this game...it's purely time consumption. This game was originally somewhat difficult on release, but there are so many reasons for that and all of those are gone. Time sinks are the only ones that remain, and they're the dumbest ones.

    Too much has changed for anyone to justify keeping time-sinks. Too much in the game has changed, and too much for the players has changed. We're all older now. Spending weeks farming pieces for a key quest to enter a zone where the items you get end up in your bank weeks after you get them - just why. Why.

    Let's all get on the same side here and agree that we need to open things up wider for TLPs. There's no reason for only a handful of [insert class that isn't a cleric] to get their epic because it requires far too much time and is rapidly replaced. There's no reason for us to want people to consciously avoid certain content.

    It's been 20 years. Why would anyone care if every zone was unlocked. What could that possibly create other than a more enjoyable experience for more people? Why would anyone care if epic mobs respawned every 2 hours?

    I have yet to hear any compelling arguments against this. Every time it always boils down to "I want to feel special, if everyone else can get this thing than I am not special" and the very notion that everyone else could get it reveals everything about how "difficult" this game really is. So why are we not just having fun doing what we want to do at this point.
    Brontus, Aneuren and Yemeth like this.
  2. Koniku Lorekeeper

    Why spend dev time on content that exists rather than spending that time on new content for the next expansion
    code-zero likes this.
  3. Dresden New Member

    What in the world would I do in eq if there wasnt.. "time sinks" as you call them. I don't understand you people.
  4. Dythan Augur

    Did you also write a manifesto about not being able to drive a car in the OG pac-man game?
  5. Bewts Augur

    The simple answer is when the content was designed, it was intended to last the players 9-12 months as expansions were generally released annually or close to it.

    When you run expansion releases in fast forward x4, the design of the content is no longer aligned to the rate in which the items can be replaced for 1/4th the time invested.

    They’ve already accommodated that bottle neck in many ways, but not in all ways. IE elements with faction grinds limited by the amount / rate in which mobs respawn, or as is clearly observed with the rarity in which specific mobs spawn at all compared the amount of people needing that mob at the same moment such as AJ for VP access.

    Some pixels just end up not being worth the investment to get it. And that’s the price you pay for 2 month unlocks. Changing entire elements of the game to accommodate a single servers rapid rate of play is unlikely to happen; and you’re going to need to reconcile with the reality that BiS or even accessing all end-game content on rapid unlock servers simply isn’t achievable for many if not most players.
  6. kizant Augur

    Time sinks are the only thing that made classic EQ difficult. Isn't that what most TLP players want?
  7. Ruhi Journeyman

    bewts sums it up pretty well.

    it's not about "im special cause i have this rare time-sink of an item" - in any game you'll have min/maxers and people willing to invest time into those camps mentioned above.

    the idealogy that "everyone must have bis" really needs to be re-evaluated and expectations should be set accordingly.

    also, as kizant mentioned - if it was about avoiding the time-sinks, i bet you could get a spirit wracked cord or a chanter epic in a day on a live server.
  8. Gremin Augur

    Everquest is a time sink, this isn't easy mode gaming.
  9. Krezzy Augur

    Before I get too far along, I'll start by agreeing with the OP. Time sinks make practically no sense in EQ on a TLP.

    Now, let's look at the role they had when the expansions were first released. EverQuest was a unique product in 1999. Other MMOs existed, but the depth and feel of the game were unmatched. Time sinks were absolutely an intended aspect of the game. Players would sit and chat on docks while waiting for boats. Players would join groups and learn how to play while exploring dungeons. KSing, ninja-looting, and other bad behavior certainly existed, but with PnP, players generally had the expectation that the community would be well-behaved, and that the bad actors would be scarce.

    Raid content was for a small minority of players! Each server had maybe half a dozen guilds that regularly raided. On a server with thousands of active players, a few hundred raided. Some servers worked out rotations. Others had hotly contested (terms like "batphone" and "poopsock" come to mind) rushes to engage dragons and other raid mobs. Spawn timers on these mobs were long - another intended time sink.

    Now, almost all game content is available to the majority of the players. The promise of being able to replay content, raid targets, and complete quests that were out of the reach of most players has earned DBG a lot of cash, and has returned a lot of former players to the fold. The reason that some epics and the cords quest get so much hate is that they're outliers. The bulk of the game has moved on from the old casual play. EQ now has a lot of competition, and certainly has competitors with a much larger player base. If players find the game isn't living up to its promise, they'll certainly move on.
  10. Tierdal Augur

    cause thats what eq is
  11. Zinkeh Augur

    Agree with the above.
    Most of us did all of the timesinks, key camps, factioning etc. back in the day. There is no reason to relive that particular nugget of nostalgia on TLP servers. Not one.

    All of these old timesinks, be it keys for a zone, pops for cords/rings etc....all of these were done when expansions were significantly longer and the content stayed relevant longer. Now you've got 3 months to what you need in that expansion AND camp the various things that all maintain their old world timers. They made a move in the right direction with the Chancellor of Di'zok but they need to apply this across the board. All these timesinks are now, on this much shorter timeline, are ways for the jerkoffs of the server to make themselves known. Our charm-gater friends have now become the charm-hostage takers or the ground spawn teleporters...etc

    I've not seen VP in 20 years. Doesn't look like I'll be seeing it on Mangler either. I'm just getting my HS key because of the -hattery that was finally fixed with the charm gating.

    Wizzies/chanters/SK's should not STILL be being screwed over on their epics either.....

    Spawn times and rarity of certain npcs should be given a major, major overhaul.

    This is supposed to be a fun reliving of old content. Not playing a carbon-copy of some crap we all have already done in 2000.
    Aneuren likes this.
  12. Dresden New Member

    Seriously?!? Without epics and vp keying and such Kunark would last less then a day. What would you do instead??
  13. Xeris Augur

    If you did the time sink quests/camps back in the day... just don't do them here? There's enough to do in EQ. I did SK epic on Agnarr so I'm not bothering to do it on Mangler.
  14. urbanbo70 Elder

    You owe Everquest every single morsel of your free time and that is the price you will pay for 20 years of awesomeness and beyond! You will continue to recycle the quests EXACTLY as they were meant to be and love it!
  15. Krezzy Augur

    Those of us who have played on TLP servers have some idea of what to expect, and know enough to either accept it as-is, or else make the effort required to obtain the epics or other quest gear.

    For players new to TLPs, however, it's a complete crap-shoot. Play a rogue? Epic is quite available. Play an Enchanter? You're out of luck.

    The player behavior exhibited with these quests and VP access should be a blazing red flag that change is needed.

    That said, the problem really only exists on Mangler at the moment, and will go away on its own in a month or two. The next TLP server could simply be configured with accelerated spawn rates on non-raid mobs and floor spawns as part of its ruleset.

    Don't expect anyone to ever want it done differently than that afterward.
    Brontus likes this.
  16. Protius Lorekeeper

    I've often wondered the same thing with these TLP's. The ratio to NPC re-spawn:expansion release does not match up. The Random Number Generator has been very beneficial to some and a nightmare so bad that people quit over the time sinks these days. The average age of the players has got to be age 40. People with families, fantasy football leagues, second and third families, jobs... The time sink doesn't match up to how much time one person or the other is spending on waiting for something to show up that could be dialed up by 60% of the original game since we see new content every 8-12 weeks.
    Brontus likes this.
  17. HoodenShuklak Augur

    Sorry dude you're not absolutely replacing a SWC in velious. More likely that thing is taking you well into luclin and vex thal.

    Time sinks are questionable but your argument fell faster than hadden surrounded by 4 afk mages.
  18. Brontus Elder

    Excellent post and unassailable logic. Notice how the usual suspects have slithered out of the woodwork and trotted out the typical shopworn justifications for timesinks.

    Timesinks do not equal content. Let me repeat that: timesinks do not equal content. Years ago two guildleaders named Furor and Tigole complained about timesinks (Vex Thall and Plane of Time) and went on to create a MMORPG that eclipsed EverQuest. 20 years later, there is no excuse them existing on TLP servers.

    Timesinks require zero skill on the part of the player. The only thing they require is the ability for the player to withstand a form of mental abuse and soul-crushing tedium. All I can say is, thank goodness for Netflix.

    The Veeshan's Peak quest is perhaps one of the worst quests in MMORPG history. This archaic quest makes little sense on a TLP server today as the loot table in VP is sub-standard and even more egregious given the fact that focus effects have been disabled until Luclin. Very little of that quest requires any skill on the part of the player. Most of it is just luck -- i.e. is the named mob going to spawn this time.

    Having more players with VP keys and thus having more players with VP loot is not going to unbalance the economy or the gameplay in EverQuest as the loot in VP is all no drop and as I just mentioned sub-standard. The devs have already nerfed the ability to charm the ghosts in VP which in my opinion was unnecessary and bordering on mean-spirited. That effort could have been expended more appropriately on fixing the Ancient Jarsath, Pained Soul and Verix Kylox's Remains spawns. It would take someone at DB all of 10 minutes to rectify this.

    In a world that is drowning in loot because of picks and Krono, timesinks like VP make no sense. At the very least every rare mob in the VP quest should be guaranteed to spawn every time and have a 20 minute re spawn timer. Problem solved. No more complaints.

    I wonder how many Daybreak Games devs have completed the VP quest on Mangler server as players? Because if they did, you can be your bottom dollar the quest would be changed immediately.

    I know people who have quit EQ because of these tedious, mind-numbing, arbitrary and needless timesinks. DB should do the right think and address them. Thank you.
    Miss_Jackie likes this.
  19. Protius Lorekeeper

    People are already dropping out of the game on Mangler due to boredom/frustration of waiting for t hings to appear or the fact that there are on average 5-6 players near (or stacked on it to prevent people from turning in the item) a spawn point just sitting there for a time that they collected with /log on expecting the NPC to spawn only to be required to wait another 12-24-...48... 60 hours for another 5-6 players to stack on top of the spawn point. To make matters worse, players are charming roaming NPC's in order to make money off of others right in the middle of them being killed AFTER they already sat through a time sink of slaughtering other roaming NPC's that require little to no skill to defeat. I am certain that most only a skeleton crew of DBG personnel actually do playthroughs.
  20. Tierdal Augur

    WoW? The game that destroyed the MMO as we know it and became a haven for free epics?
    Miss_Jackie likes this.

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