Why did you add Overseer if all you've done is make it useless?

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Tanise, Apr 15, 2020.

  1. Natal Augur

    Nope. All they did was put a tick in a field that was likely already associated with the item anyway, if it was derived from the overseer system. Picking up the item as a mob drop or ground spawn does not tick the field, getting it as an overseer reward does.
  2. Natal Augur

    It is not pointless, it still allows you to get the collectibles you are missing. What it stops is the creation of bot armies intended for the sole purpose of farming them.

    Why is a mechanism for obtaining old rare collectibles from content no one does any more a bad thing?
  3. Jordis Augur

    I think it's fun, haven't spent any cash on it because there was never any need to, and think the changes were reasonable for the most part and complaints addressed.
    Corwyhn Lionheart, swerves and Goburs like this.
  4. Natal Augur

    The intent is that it provides a mechanism to complete sets YOU are missing, not so that you can stock up you bazaar vendor.
    Brilhasti and Thunderkiks like this.
  5. Wulfhere Augur

    For many customers, the definition of "YOU" includes two or more subscribed accounts and has nothing to do with the bazaar. Therein lies the rub.
  6. Garioch New Member

    I am glad this thread is here, as DB needs to see the number of disgruntled patrons it has created with this Overseer. I was disappointed with the currency vendor and the useless garbage it offers. Nothing fun or special from that vendor, just stocked with after thought junk. I was very happy with doing the Collection Item Dispenser missions and was looking forward to getting a ton of back flagging done for Collects. I was even looking forward to the "Chocobo Breeding" type charts that would show what combines of Agents would create the most awesome of minions. Now the Collection Items Dispenser chance of success was nerfed (Who in their right mind accepts employment knowing there is a chance they will not get paid with the items they were promised and took the job for?) This is stupid. Now they took that and made it even more miserable to get the collections. So, Devs.... here is the crux of the problem you have created: You rolled out this add-on to the game (just like they did with Legends of Norrath) it obviously was not working in the manner you intended so you nerfed it. Then you nerfed it again. Now you are nerfing it AGAIN .... all the while the ToV expansion rolled out incomplete. For the first time in EQ history you have released an expansion (that you had ALL YEAR to work on) in phases because none of it was complete. Add these to the list of complaints for it 1) its the smallest expansion ever (which does not help with the ALL YEAR comment). 2) You copied and pasted the zones = Zero new content to explore. 3) Who in their right mind, with all the zones there are in EQ to choose from, decided it was a good idea to have 3 versions of the same zones? (Dont get me wrong, there are some of these duplicated zones that I absolutely love, like the chance to see Qeynos bay before the city was built, or the Library of Kaesora before it was destroyed) But 3 versions of a zone fails the common sense test in my opinion. When you roll out a substandard product, with an unnecessary add-on then nerf the crap out of said add-on it pisses off the people that really just want to play a fun game. I would appreciate it if you all would concentrate on extending and continuing the legacy of what is becoming the worlds oldest/longest running online game, and not indulging Bob's half- ideas just because it sounds cool at the board meetings. If your intent is to stymie interest in EQ, you are winning. I am sure there are still some in DB employ who actually play this game, and have the same high hopes the rest of us do... though I am sure they live and work in an environment of frustration. I have been playing this game since April 2001 and the only breaks I have taken from it were due to my physical location and lack of access to the internet. Someone in the hierarchy of EverQuest needs to take a step back, take a deep breath, and decide if this game is destined to thrive and continue, or go down as one of the biggest gaming disappointments in history. Your call.
    Spartee, SmellyFinger and Mazame like this.
  7. Zunnoab Augur

    Actually, they had the raids done earlier. They weren't delayed to be finished.

    The staggered raid tier releases were intentional, and frankly I agree with the decision. I liked it in RoF and CotF, and I like it here. It's the only way, short of insane over-tuning, difficulty selections they don't have the budget to implement (and no SoD style "sit all your extra DPS and support classes to get to 36" doesn't count), or punishing flagging mechanics, to spread out the content for the strongest raid forces.
    Elyssanda likes this.
  8. Metanis Augur

    that no one reads...
    Gyurika Godofwar likes this.
  9. Chlorogoth New Member

    I was thinking about this. I wonder what small claims court would do for those who spent a chunk of change on a service that is altered without the return of the money spent? The EULA can't protect Daybreak over that in the US, even if they want it to.
    Spartee likes this.
  10. Chlorogoth New Member

    Spending money on a service that is changed to reduce the value of the service, but after you spent the money and without compensation for the reduction in value. It is known as a 'bait and switch' and is generally illegal in the United States.
    Spartee, Goburs, Mazame and 1 other person like this.
  11. Tanacious Lorekeeper

    Man.... here I thought they couldn't make Overseer any more worthless, or piss off their player base any more than they already have.... wow.

    Now credit where it's due: They did seem to listen to players about the ridiculous token prices for items, but they still had to change a couple to make them higher....(Maybe just someone on an EGO trip trying to save face? Ngrath doesn't type like that kind of narcissist, but I could be wrong.)

    If anyone wants to revisit the original Overseer changes and my forum argument where I argue from a CEO's point of view based on customer satisfaction, rather than a player's: https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq...g-overseer-changes.264015/page-8#post-3882126

    Start from my post and read forward, although please feel free to read the entirety of the 10 pages of people saying similar things compared to this thread.

    Now.... In most cases there are 3 sides to every story. The story here is about the Overseer feature. The first side is what the players say. The second side is what the dev/admins say. The 3rd side is what is actually happening.

    In this instance though we have some interesting elements going on that involve real money cash for services, changes in those services, and a player base beyond ready to riot. Fueling this is the fact that most people are stuck indoors, and all they want to do is play EQ, and not put up with BS from Darkpaw.

    Volatile doesn't begin to describe the situation. I will help diffuse a few things though. (Hopefully) I retain a team of lawyers that specialize in digital rights, technology cases, etc. etc. because of the type of industry I am in.

    On behalf of the players of EQ, I scheduled some time for them to look over various changes done recently, because yes, I agree they seem shady, and very... well... weird? might be the right word. Sure, every company that has ever owned this game has no issues swinging the nerf bat, but it was about things that didn't matter before, and just changing the game play. But this time around, we are getting into RMT, gambling, and changes that really are far worse than anything they have done before.

    1. Someone mentioned about "bait and switch". So I will start with those notes first.
    In Darkpaw's TOS agreement, they have a clause in there which states to the effect of "they can change anything at anytime they want, with or without notice." Whereas that does relieve a lot of pressure on Darkpaw's part for liability for changes that are unwanted, or un-liked (bait and switch) it DOES NOT alleviate their liability for "coercing" transactions based on false premises.
    Example: DP introduces Overseer. Player X really enjoys Overseer. Player X decides to purchase DBC for the express purpose of enhancing their Overseer play. DP decides to completely change Overseer, which is well within their right, however in the process invalidates that player's result of premium purchases with DBC. This is where I am told it gets a little tricky. You would have to prove that you expressly bought DBC for the purposes of enhancing your Overseer experience with premium features that were then specifically invalidated by the changes to the Overseer functionality.

    It sounds simple but you have to think of it like this, DBC can be used for anything. So if you have never bought DBC before, and this was your first time, you have a pretty solid case. If you have bought it semi-infrequently, and can prove what events where you bought it for, then you're probably still okay, but it's probably not worth the effort. If you buy it on a regular basis, it's going to be hard to prove without some specific photo backed, or live streaming backed evidence that you made the purchase just for Overseer.

    2. Despite what Darkpaw tells you, you ARE entitled to a refund. But again, there's kind of a tricky slope here. Certain aspects of the Consumer protection law apply to digital purchases, and certain aspects don't.

    You A. Have to have not consumed anything relating to Overseer rewards, before or after the change as far as consumable items go, within reason. Obviously if you used it to buy Agents and you still have those agents, you are mostly okay. The subsequent things you used them for and got rewards from is kind of a grey matter, because everything was fine up until DP decide to change them.

    You B. Have to have reasonable grounds as described in Point 1.

    And C. Go through proper channels and not initiate a charge back. Now most of you are thinking, yeah right, that won't ever happen, and it's not worth the 20 bucks. You are absolutely right. But if we are talking like you dropped a few hundred on this, then it's at least worth having the conversation. Be polite as well. The person you are talking to deals with accounting, and probably doesn't even play EQ, so they have no idea.

    3. We all band together and file what is called a civil suit, seeking punitive damages against Darkpaw games for illicit solicitation of real currency transactions, and failing or refusing to deliver promised digital goods. Again, this may sound like something that is worth while, but unless we are talking about hundreds of thousands of dollars up to millions of dollars here, it's just not worth it. Sure a civil suit may require legal fees be paid as part of it, but a civil suit is a long drawn out complicated mess that just isn't worth it. The average legal fees for a digital based suit like this can easily get well into the 5 digits, if not 6. The amount of time it can also take can be years as well. So not really a viable option.

    4. The percentage chance of Overseer Collection Item Drop (OCID) was indeed nothing short of gambling. I had the team read a post made by Ngrath, and he is completely wrong. (Dang it Jim, He's a developer, not a lawyer.) Here is the direct skinny from the legal team on it, and it's pretty cut and dry:

    "Because of the element of RMT involved, even though the currency is being converted to a digital format or token based currency, it is still considered currency. Because you have the option of spending this currency on this aspect of the game, it is still considered gambling because of the random chance outcome factor. Even if you obtain this item (OCID) without spending currency, it is still considered a form of gambling because the possibility exists for you to spend currency to either speed up the result outcome or enhance your outcome, (Better chance to succeed because you can buy better agents) without a guaranteed result. Being guaranteed a random chance does not count as a finite result, and is the very definition of Gambling in and of itself."

    I of course asked them today about the whole shard thing, and they said they would have to look into it to exactly to see if it's enough removed to have it not constitute a gambling system, but they said it was unlikely. But it sounds like as if the shard change was made because their legal team probably advised them of the same thing.

    5. The final point the legal team made was, if you don't like what they are doing, don't buy things from them. We as players are well within our right to boycott their services and paid items, DBC, etc. We can peacefully protest it on the forums, within reason, create websites/forums of our own, discord channels, picket outside the company, etc. etc. That's called freedom of speech. It may or may not have a result.

    What players can't do:
    We cannot hack or otherwise "attack" digital services with the intent of disrupting or impeding service.
    We cannot create characters, or "Bot armies" for the express purpose to interfere with other's game play, or any other item on this list.
    We cannot promote non-factual information in or out of game.
    We cannot harass or otherwise impede employees or affiliates of EQ or Darkpaw in their job capacities, or physical real life.
    We cannot create automated spam bots in game, on the forums, on related products, or anything else automated, regardless of the content it puts forth.
    We cannot take any action, in game or otherwise, that would be constituted as criminal intent, or encouraging others to do so.

    What players CAN do:
    We CAN address our grievances to Darkpaw Games in a constructive manner.
    We CAN peacefully protest, both in and out of game.
    We CAN organize a boycott of subscriptions, DBC purchases, and any other transaction based offering from Darkpaw Games
    We CAN argue/post/inform others of factual based information regarding this matter.
    We CAN stop playing EQ and/or using Overseer functions

    What Darkpaw games CANNOT Do:
    DP Games CANNOT suspend or ban any account for peacefully protesting or any other performance of the acts on the players CAN list.

    DP Games CANNOT retaliate against anyone promoting a link to a discussion about anything on the Player's CAN list.

    DP Games CANNOT impede, reduce, or otherwise interfere with your playing experience as retaliation for performing anything on the CAN list.

    What Darkpaw games CAN do:
    If you facilitate a charge back for a recent purchase, they CAN suspend or ban your account.
    DP CAN suspend or ban accounts directly discouraging sales, or soliciting fraudulent information in with the intended end result being the same.
    DP CAN suspend or ban accounts for vulgarity, profanity, or anything along those lines.
    DP CAN remove, suspend, or ban forum postings. Whereas there may not be any violation of forum rules mind you, they still own the forums, and can do with it as they please... making backups of all your posts as evidence is probably not a bad idea.
    DP CAN alter or change whatever they wish, whenever they wish, about their product (EQ) they created. Players are effectively "renting" their product. Players do NOT own any part of their product.

    However, the grey area, and believed to be the source of the underlying conflict in this matter, comes with enhanced DBC items and content. It's a pretty big grey area, and whereas their may not be anything illegal about changing it because it's still considered part of the main product, it technically is something different altogether because a separate purchase can be made for enhancing the core aspect of this Overseer program, much akin to purchasing a heroic character for the main product (EQ). Yes, it's still contained within the main product (EQ) but is also separate from it at the same time.

    So there ends the official legal jargon from an actual team of lawyers that I like to think are pretty good at their jobs. They have never steered me wrong thus far.

    Now with all that out of the way: Here's my take on the situation. A majority of people involved in this game, on BOTH sides, are under a lot of duress, anxiety, agitation, and many other things that are a result of the CoVid pandemic the world is presently facing.

    I am not.

    I have been classified by the local and federal US government as an essential business, and so my routine has changed very little, other than being slamming busy because everyone needs their tech to work properly from needing it to work from home, or entertain them, do digital sales, etc. etc.

    With that in mind I am weighing in on this because I consider it to be important to me, and many other people/players, and I also detect a very serious trigger point. Not just because of Overseer changes, but because it is the proverbial straw.

    I do tend to agree that Darkpaw Games, although fully in their right to do so, has overstepped their reach a little with constantly nerfing, changing, rearranging things to the detriment of players and their experiences. To add fuel to the fire, because many people were willing, and did, spend their DBC on the Overseer feature(s), it leaves them feeling like they were treated very unfairly, because now their purchases are worthless.

    Many players have brought up factual points, backed by many years of experience playing EQ, that all representatives of Darkpaw Games seem to be ignoring. They have been very quiet on this situation with Overseer which leads me to believe that they are not, in fact, fully in control of this aspect of EQ.

    Either that, or the only other logical conclusion is that the team has been tasked with putting the final nails in the EQ coffin so they can liquidate the asset. Obviously to the non business world it makes more sense to have something showing it generates revenue, but realistically if you are selling off an asset, and sell it at a loss, you get more of a tax break.

    Regarding the in game economy and mechanics, I don't think any item should be No Trade any more. I know they have TLP and specific servers for this, but I don't see the point any longer on any server. Way back in the day it was to prevent exploitation and twinking out lvl 1 characters. Now we have level requirements on most things beyond planes of power, they give out lvl 85 heroic characters fully decked out in gear, and some of the most widely used high end gear in the game is trade-able, made from crafting, and better than it's No Trade counterparts.

    Specifically back to the Overseer and it's brutal beating with the nerf and no-trade bats, players are very much correct that leaving the components and currency trade-able would force the bot army Krono scalpers right out of business. As someone else mentioned, there are many shady sites where you can go and buy Krono for less than what DPG sells it for. Besides being against the TOS, there is really no real other legitimate reason NOT to buy something 2nd hand for cheaper.

    If DPG wants to prevent this, the Overseer was the perfect answer to it. Overseer pre-nerf was the perfect answer to castrate their supply of endless plat to buy Krono with to turn around and sell it on their dark website. It was a two birds one stone scenario, and then you reversed it!?

    So that tells us that only a couple of things can be true. Ngrath, or some other Dev/admins, are actually the ones behind the dark websites selling the Krono, undercutting their own company to line their own pockets. That's still Embezzlement... sorry. Hopefully that isn't the case, but wouldn't be the first time someone at a company does shady things like that in California.

    If not that, then DPG actually WANTS to have players who effectively are 1%er's in game, and continue to squeeze plat and krono out of everyone else with their bot armies of end game raid geared characters. Sure, every online game has their whales, but um... these might be whales, but they are undercutting your prices, and paying you with money that should have been DPG's in the first place.

    Example: Scavvy trader A sells 200 million plat worth of items a week, collectibles, trade skill, spells, etc. Then Scavvy trader trades money for items from another account, that other account gets from their broker. Broker takes plat, distributes it to 10 newbie accounts, each one buying a Krono when they see it on sale in the bazaar set up with auto scripting. After a few days of doing this, they then begin to sell the Krono on the dark website, and use the in game delivery system to deliver the Krono to the purchaser.
    Let's say they sell it for 10 bucks instead of 18. So now they have made 100 bucks out of nothing. Multiply this by 4 weeks, and now they have $400, enough for 3 yearly subscriptions, 1 for their Broker, one for their trader, and one for their playing character. They are paying DPG with money made from their OWN items!

    Realistically speaking, DPG can't even fix database relational errors in a semi timely manner, (Or prevent them in the first place) so catching someone doing this who is fully versed in the tech world, especially falling more on the dark side of the grey area with tech... well it's laughable to even think about. I know people like that in real life that skirt the dark side of tech. DPG has ZERO hope of ferreting out the RMT Krono sellers, and I believe they know that, which is why they aren't even trying.

    I have suspected for a long time that DPG actually outsources all of their code and design, and the devs in house simply put it all together, which is why some things are as broken as they are. But anyway, I digress.

    So now, lets deal with another option: That for whatever reason, DPG is COMPLETELY clueless about all of this. K fine. That would mean they are ignorant on a level that transcends what SoE was, but as unlikely as it seems, let's say that's the case.

    They have LITERALLY HUNDREDS of players, most of them HIGHLY EXPERIENCED, telling them whats up in game. If a few dozen mention it, ya okay maybe it was just shared perception. But when every player dealing with this overseer matter is on the same page, saying the same things, that's not a coincidence.

    We don't all play on the same servers, but we are now all saying the same things.

    One can only logically conclude that they are INTENTIONALLY ignoring their customer base, and so they will reap the consequences of that, whatever it may be. Now there could also be another factor in this as to the boss's boss telling them to do it, and well, we all kind of understand that. (But in that case we are all with you, and you should show him/her these forum posts.)

    My vote is with change it all back, every last bit of it prior to even the first nerf, except for fixing the bugs and errors and stuff. Put the prices back to what they were, leave the items trade-able, and ya having more merc xp is okay too I guess, although none of us really care too terribly much about that. They will get xp over time anyway.

    But as history will show, no company has ever done anything like that in the history of the game, so expecting them to start now is kind of foolhardy at best, and completely insane at worst.

    My long time 20 year old offer still stands, I offer to buy this game for $100 when all these companies have finally driven it into the ground, and I will make it rise like a phoenix, or rather a flying cash cow, and simply by listening to the players. They are, after all, responsible for your paychecks.

    Sorry all about the seriously long novel. Just lots of things needed to be said. Next thing you know they will be taking away the Rogue Backstab ability because it's too powerful.
  12. Mazame Augur

    They are not going to take away Backstab they just going to move it from the rogue to the Sk after all SK dot revamp only made them QQ. So they need something to make them happy.
    Goburs likes this.
  13. dreadlord Augur

    So we have pages and pages on this and just the above Dev comment. Can we have someone explain *please* why this was thought to be necessary/a good idea?
    I'm looking at 200+ useless dispensers and am really really not best pleased
    Barraind likes this.
  14. Spartee New Member

    When SOE still owned the game they did exactly this with the fan faire illusion. The negative stigma is still there years later. A lot of us bought the fan faire ticket to claim the item intentionally as advertised and SOE made the change after making money on the transaction, almost immediately. This is a matter of fact and some of the team is still there today who were involved with this.
  15. Oldschool AF New Member

    it is not fixed. crashed again last night
  16. Oldschool AF New Member

    I know it is not a fun opinion but i would not be doing anything that has value in game right now. Like using parcel or buying stuff from DBG store. With the still constant crashes to many players are losing items to the out of control server status
  17. Tatanka Augur

    Living a happy life is partly dependent on managing your expectations.

    I'm not saying you're wrong in wanting them to do this (I would like to hear it, also), but based on their history, this explanation will never come. Just count on that being the truth, and then if they DO tell us why they thought this was necessary, it'll be a pleasant surprise.

    But they won't ;)
  18. dreadlord Augur

    I know, I know....
    I come from a customer service environment where, in my current job, any and every query from a paying customer is answered within 30 minutes or someone gets sacked.
    We have massive customer retention. Someone should do a cost/benefit analysis of providing that level of service here.
    Stonewalling folk who've invested a lot of time (very many people) and actual hard earned cash (fewer, but a significant number) in something that just became absolutely worthless* just doesn't compute to me at all
    * the no-drop collectibles can't even be tributed so - 100% worthless
  19. Angahran Augur

    So, once again doing everything possible to remove the 'MM' from 'MMORPG'.

    Not everyone sold spare collectibles in the bazaar.
    Quite a few of us have houses that we have open to guildies or even open to everyone where we drop items we don't need.
    Now we can't do that.
    Elyssanda, Yara_AB, Tatanka and 4 others like this.
  20. Caeelar New Member

    I'm not going to say Overseer is now useless, it still has use. I still use it to get collectibles, and it's nice for recovering lost raid xp. That said, if I had known how badly it was going to be nerfed, I would have NEVER spent 9k db coins on the big agent pack on all three of my subs (I've had these subs for 20 years, so no.. not a new bot army). I don't have alot of extra money to throw into a game, so I just save up my 500/month until something comes along I really want. I thought Overseer was going to be worth it, and now I've spent months work of saving up coins on something that has been nerfed tremendously. I'm still not saying it's useless, but it's not what was advertised or what it was when I spent the coins... it's no where NEAR what it was when I spent.

    You guys REALLY need to offer a refund to those of use that spent a bunch of coins on agent packs. 9k coins is alot, and 9k x 3 accounts is more than I've ever spent at one time as far as I can remember. I've very dissatisfied with my purchase and I would like a refund.
    Corwyhn Lionheart and dreadlord like this.

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