Why can't Rogues be viable on TLP?

Why monks are not viables at 115!!, Each era have his advantages, im going play a warrior in classic , if i decide this i have to deal with it. One of the Rogues advantatges are easy loot, easy move, lookpiking, consistent dps, have not to pull.

Crazy how rogues can be a top 3 sustained DPS for 9 of the first 10 expansions yet people complain about them being weak DPS
Crazy how rogues can be a top 3 burst DPS class for like 6-7 of the first 10 expansion yet people complain about them being weak DPS
Crazy how Rogues are best sustained DPS for 4 of the first 10 expansions yet people complain about them being weak DPS

People that complain about Rogues damage are weird. Rogues do plenty of DPS in everything besides Classic.

Rogues obvious glaring actual weakness is what do you do when you're not in a group or Raid.

I truly can appreciate Bobby's attention to detail by spelling it "Rouge" and putting that finishing touch on it.

You completely missed the demographic of players that I was referencing. I’m not talking about the everything past PoP sucks crowd. I’m talking about the people that just play for fun 3, maybe 6 months and take a break. The game should be fun in any era for every class. EQ’s problem is that they tied class fixed to eras instead of spreading it across the whole game.

It doesn’t make the game better to have some classes be undesirable. Just because, they’ll be fixed later in the timeline doesn’t mean that everyone will
experience it.

Rogues viability in pop is still worse than monks because monk is so much more versatile, sure on tanked raid bosses rogues trade blows with monk on the parse but in every other situation monk is better. Monk can just go duo aa with their shm box too while a rogue needs a group and way more effort

You pierce <insert mob name> for 1 damage.
You backstab <insert mob name> for 1 damage.

Those are are real situations in raids and truly not viable for a class whose sole purpose is conditional and positional melee damage be it in group or raid settings.

The simplest fix has been appropriately tuned poisons to make up for the lagging damage tables rogues experience compared to other classes.

I'm not. Live players always dealt with periods where their class was relatively weak compared to their counterparts. Guess how devs fixed it? Later expansions. You want your fix to rogues? Continue playing, just like we did it on live. Don't expect devs to fix an issue that's solved by just playing past Kunark just because some choose to play for only 3 months. That's their problem.

I was a rogue for a very long time and on my third TLP soon it is disappointing how they leave them as they are. Rogues really could use a bump in performance.

Bro, wait until you find out that TLPs don’t recreate the Live experience. I don’t want to share too many details with all of changes, so I’ll let you experience it on your own.

LOL at the notion that it's some herculean effort to rebalance rogues for the first few expansions. Give me access to the database, I'm pretty sure I could do it in 10 minutes or less.

1. Give mages a spell that summons a rogue only dagger that = monk fist table, make 4 tiers of it.
2. Start rogues at 25 melee skill, add 25 max to every tier.

voila, rogues fixed.

I am experiencing. There's nothing wrong with rogues right now. Bro, as I said, wait a bit and the issues clear up. This childish "gimme my fix now wahhhh" mentality is pathetic. Play the game, deal with the peaks and valleys of your class through the eras.

https://www.daybreakgames.com/careers?department=game_design

Ah ok, here I was thinking you had no idea TLPs and their respective Live eras were different. I’m still not convinced you understand Classic EQ was very different from modern TLP Classic.

You’re not really one to understand your own logic are you? If rogues were fine, then later expansions wouldn’t fix them. Which, you’re advocating just waiting it out. If you’re fixing something after 6 months, why not just correct the issue to begin with? Fact is TLP launches generate the most eyes on EQ1 and Rogue is one of the very popular, fantasy setting classes.

Is it going to break the game to have Rogues be worthwhile for groups? No, it’s just going to improve people’s gameplay experiences. It’s pretty dumb to tell people either come back when it doesn’t suck or pay for bad gameplay.

No... matters the expansion but a rogue falls behind a BST in Luclin even with similar gear. Rangers are god like in raid encounters as well. I have never played a rogue for TLP but I see the few I played with and usually placed middle of the pack with no utility. CR's were not needed to often in TLPs because alot of us have it memorized.

Except you know, a large portion of the player base who actually subscribe specifically for TLP because Live has no appeal to them and they are here specifically because they want a more classic experience and want to be able to play the class they played 20 years ago without feeling like a massive and huge burden. Rogues we’re NEVER BAD for the first five expacs, if you think otherwise glance at P99 and notice who top DPS is.

It just feels really bad to hear about this new server and realize you can’t even play the class you want to because they completely ruined it and took it from being a top tier DPS class down to being an unplayable class that can’t solo and no one wants in their group.

If rogues sucked 20 years ago, that would be a different matter entirely, but they didn’t. They have been made to suck. Meanwhile meme classes like Ranger and Wizard are suddenly viable. Very backwards. Imagine returning to find out that Clerics are no longer viable healers and if you want to heal you need to play Ranger or Paladin. This is what it feels like because you literally took a class that was awesome at DPS, made it terrible, and then took two classes that were garbage and made them better DPS than the class who was originally one of the best DPS classes in the game..

You have also a really weird mentality. Imagine if we were playing WoW and the community actually argued that entire classes should be unplayable for years or at least until the game reaches content that most players have no interest in — which is why they are playing on TLP in the first place.

In a lot of situations regular invis is better than rogues slow hide/sneak for corpsedrags.

People are starting on TLPs because they don’t like playing Garbo live EQ. Even the most die hard EQ fans passionately hate live EQ or anything after PoP really.

If Daybreak Games made a new expansion that picked up where Velious left off and ignored Luclin, PoP, GoD etc, like they never even happened I genuinely think you would see a lot of old players come back and stay. Problem is any returning player sees the Garbo of live EQ and loses all interest in playing it.

So when there is a TLP a lot of people want to play it. They want to experience the same content and experiences they had 20 years ago. They are not coming back to play expacs that were so bad that they made 80% of the player base quit the game when they launched. And they shouldn’t have to. Monks and Rangers were not demigods 20 years ago. And rogues were not a useless class.

Give players what they want, it’s crazy to argue that returning players who came back specifically for the TLP should wait until content that didn’t bring them back to the game in the first place is released if they want to be able to play a class that was optimal 20 years ago, but is currently unplayable.

Yup, ppl act like rogues are in a super good spot if they beat monks by 1% on a parse, while ignoring the fact that monks cost significantly less mana to heal because they can keep themselves topped off with mend.

It's been interesting to see the propaganda campaign by monks play out over the last 15 years or so.
Step 1: Convince everyone your class inherently has some huge advantage.
Step 2: Get put in a group with a bard, make sure the other melee classes are not with a bard.
Step 2a:Run your own parse, stand as far as possible from the rogues.
Step 3: Top the parse. Post the parse everywhere. Never post a parse from later in an expansion, only post "level cap increase prior to weapon drops" parses.
Step 4: Complain that content is too easy to get MoTM implemented, which reduces all melee dps to essentially nothing. All content now dumb zerg fests where nobody is buffed and all mobs take 1 dmg per hit, win by swinging more.
Step 5: Conveniently ignore that 99% of raid dps is now done by damage shields and charmed pets.
Step 6: 22 monks in every raid, complain that not enough leather drops.
Step 7: Watch rogues/rangers/zerkers dominate parses once aura's are a thing.
Step 8: Aggresively post how you can do all content by yourself, leaving out that you HAVE to do it by yourself, because nobody groups with anyone because that's how the game is now.

Given appropriate attention from buff classes, placed with a bard, rogues are top dps from level 1 to max level. It takes more effort, and less gearing. For a monk to beat the rogue, they have to literally have all the best things, in the perfect group, with all the right buffs, which, since so many make monks now, is harder and harder to pull off. The top monk MIGHT consistently be at the top of the parse, but every rogue will be top 10 every time. And if the person forming the raid makes sure to pair the rogue with a competent bard, it's just not an issue.

Play a rogue well, run your own parse, look at the entire raid parse, total damage for the night. Rogue will be in the top. The more rogues in your guild, the faster your raids are, more loot per hour, more successful raids, more people show up every night, everything. The raid dies when the last rogue stops showing up.

MotM is the problem, not monks, not innate damage boosts or damage tables. MotM was and is a terrible solution to a non-problem, now that AoC's are a thing.

Ranger buffs account for approximately 30% of melee dps. Haste accounts for approximately 50% of melee dps. Bards account for approximately 20% of melee dps. Every melee class, rogues, monks, zerkers, are just vessels carrying the impact of those effects. Once you start thinking of it this way, you'll be a lot happier. Raids with a mixture of all the classes do much, much better, as loot rots slower and everyone gears up faster. Whatever inherent benefit to the class completely disappears in the face of player skill and adequate gear.

Play.What.You.Want. Stop optimizing the fun out of the game.

Disclaimer: Don't play in classic if it bothers you that much. If you are claiming to be nostalgic about rogues being top dps on raids in classic, you are so full of sh*t. Nobody was top anything, it was 4 frames per second on engage, nobody knew why the raid won, sometimes the mob died, sometimes it even left a corpse. You think, you were LD by then, because you were LD every 15 minutes. If YOUR connection was good enough to stay in game, the servers weren't up. It won't ever feel like classic because of that alone. Classic is terrible. Enchanters were self-buffing with tash. Legit terrible, you just aren't experiencing it through the lens of "there's nothing else to do" "nobody will touch my fun parts" "at least I'm not LD...nope, wait, went LD four zones ago..." "shoot, I'm still in the tutorial."

I don't know what % of a rogue's damage comes from backstab. If it is a significant amount, then the solution to me would be a line of code that changes rogue minimum backstab to a % of maximum. Like never let backstab do less than 20% of it's maximum or something.

I do like the idea of cool poisons, but I think that would be a lot harder to balance against all content both group and non group.