Why are Shamans almost universally thought to be better then Druids?

Discussion in 'Time Locked Progression Servers' started by Midnitewolf, Jun 21, 2022.

  1. Tweakfour17 Augur

    It ebbs and flows, sometimes your class is top, sometimes its not. Thats how EQ has always been. Druids can do very well on some fights and less well on others. I don't think the game needs to be balanced so every class is equal during every expansion, that'd be boring.
  2. Midnitewolf Augur

    Yeah I wish they would have went a different way with Druids. When I last tried out a Druid in a previous TLP, I couldn't help but wish they would have removed removed the healing component for more DPS. I envisioned something more like the Necro/SK pairing between Druid and Ranger. The Ranger would obviously be similar to what it is today, 75% melee/25% Caster while the Druid had a strong combo of DD, DoTs and Buffs while having about 20% or so of its DPS coming from melee.
  3. Kahna Augur

    I was the druid stacking debuffs. I was the one doing the parsing. There wasn't a statistically significant difference in the parses. Show me the parses that prove me wrong and perhaps I will reconsider.

    I am not sure how much learning it takes to cast 4 debuffs. Though, to be fair, I can rarely get all of them to even land. Mobs are usually resistant to at least 1 element type. Turning a loss into a win? LOL. Fire resist? My guild doesn't have a wizard, and while we have mages, I am not actually sure they cast spells. Casters who would benefit from a neg fire or cold resist are as rare as hen's teeth on TLPs, mostly because they spend a lot of the TLP core being really sub par. So debuffing those stats adds very little ADPS to the raid on a TLP.
  4. Missiny New Member

    Talking about parsing: isn't it that druids outdps even wizzards by margin?
    And wasn't it that what they asked for in the past?
    For me it seems that now that they got there, it's time to lament as long as they can't outheal a cleric.
  5. Midnitewolf Augur

    I haven't played much outside of TLPs but I heard the same thing about Druids but I think it is a pretty long journey to get there if your starting in Classic on a TLP.

    Truth be told, I was hoping someone would convince me that the life of a Druid wouldn't be miserable hours of LFG if I decided to play one instead of a Shaman, starting at classic. Alas, that doesn't seem to be case.
  6. Wulfhere Augur

    If you had quoted the right values I would not have replied.

    I agree the debuffs are weak and situational. Does a max AC warrior using defensive notice -232 ATK? Doubtful. But if say a knight is tanking, that's DI-1 or DI-2.

    Besides wizards, E`ci debuff is sometimes important to help land warrior cold slow proc on certain raid mobs.

    Resists can be a problem if cast out-of-order and some zones have fire/cold immune mobs. Fire resist casting starts with your lure debuff (Ro's Fiery Sundering/Hand of Ro), then Breath of Ro (or better up to say Immolation of the Sun), lastly Ro's Illumination.
  7. Kahna Augur

    E'ci doesn't come out until PoP and cold based slows are really a Luclin/Velious thing. Tanking with a knight? I suppose there are a few mobs that a knight can keep aggro on easier, but we knight tanked those without a druid just fine so... Yeah, not convinced. Another shaman or cleric healing or another DPS meleeing to kill the mob faster is probably going to be more effective to over all raid progress than a druid debuffing. No one is bringing a druid on classic-PoP raids for their debuffs. Or their buffs. They are bringing them because 1. They like the person who plays the druid, or 2. They have empty spots and nothing better to fill them with so why not.

    And no one, in the history of EQ, has ever invited a druid to a PuG because they can debuff fire resist and a little bit of atk/ac. Peeps have definitely invited a shaman solely for slow.
  8. Shakara Augur

    Druids are criminaly underrated because imo no one actually knows how to play the class. Everyone tries to play every preist class in EQ like a cleric. Druids are really more of a support class that can heal if needed. They add a lot of DPS to a group with their DS and have access to nukes to help burn mobs down. With evac they add a lot of safety to groups allowing them to escape from a wipe. Along with that they have acess to a ton more untility. However most groups invite a druid as the sole healer in a group. Without a good CC class this puts druids in a poor spot. Druids really get to shine when they are able to use their whole kit much like a bard.
    Wulfhere and code-zero like this.
  9. TLP Addict Augur

    A well played Druid isn't a waste of a group slot, it's just that they are vastly out numbered by the poorly played Druids.

    I cringe every time one joins the group and asks, "Am I heals or DPS?" you're a druid you can do both.

    I cringe every time I see one just meleeing in the group, happens more often than you think.

    I cringe every time I see a Druid dot land on a mob 10 seconds before it dies, or any time when mobs are dying in less than 30 seconds.

    It's a versatile and adaptable class, but requires a reasonably high IQ to play well and adjust to varying group compositions and situations.

    Most just either want to be a sub par cleric and play whackamole with health bars, or they want to just DPS and act almost exactly the same as if they were solo root rotting.
  10. Kahna Augur

    Cute that you think a druid has the mana to both nuke and heal in a classic group. They don't. They focus on one or the other and they can maybe be an effective group member, but no way you are getting both from them until OOC regen is in. And even then only when the group is killing easy content.

    Even a well played druid's spot could be better filled by a focused class. Jack-of-all-trades classes always have this problem.

    DS adds a pittance of dps to the group, especially at higher levels, and even less when the group has a slower, which 95% of groups have, because tank, heals, slows are how groups are built. Even DS PLing with a druid and a bard DS starts to lose effectiveness over level 46. Mobs just have too many HP.

    Evacing is a group failure. Better to have a cleric who could actually keep the group healed or a shaman who could AE slow those excess pulls. If you have to Evac you might as well have just wiped. By the time you run back to your camp someone else will have taken it and your group will likely break up. As for their tons of other utility? Who needs ports when you just want to sit in one spot and kill stuff? Run speed? Plenty of better classes can provide that, and everyone and their brother has jboots. Roots and snares? Also provided by classes who perform their designated role more effectively than a druid. Tracking? LOL.

    Groups on TLPs only need one healer. A cleric or shaman can easily keep the average pug healed without struggling (a druid can too, but it is harder for them to keep their mana up). Why would a group want to invite a sub par DPS that can provide back up heals that aren't needed when they can invite a real DPS and kill much faster? There are always plenty of real DPS in LFG.
  11. Shakara Augur

    This is what I mean when I say you are trying to play your druid like a cleric. You are setting up groups where your druid is the only person healing. Having a healer that can flex into being a DPS when you need is a great boon. Often healers will be sitting at full mana because the group is solid and often I choose druids over clerics if I know damage mitigation wont be an issue. As for evac not being useful well that just being dense. Bad pulls happen all the time or stuff respawns at a bad time or you have a charm pet break ect ect. The threat of wipe is always there and evac saves a ton more time than rezzing. Rezzing's niche is when random people die often like a puller getting rooted or that wizard who has bloodlust.
    code-zero likes this.
  12. Panikker Elder

    Because they are !!! accept it and move on ..the current makers of the game did just that lol ..
  13. Triconix Augur

    Technically it was former devs who created that disaster of classic era [lack of] balance
  14. Gnothappening Augur

    I much prefer a druid over a shaman in classic. I like having ports, back up heals, and sow. I already have an enchanter for slow, so it isn't needed. Plus the druid adds a zero damage snare that lasts forever. But I am coming from the perspective of a full group that I play. Since ports are a necessity for me I can only pick wizard or druid. I prefer the location of druid ports and I want SOW. That limits me once again. Another cool feature is that later on, since I am a caster heavy group, POTG gives me extra mana regen. Toss in clicky dot arms and I just prefer having a druid.
    code-zero likes this.
  15. Kahna Augur

    The threat of a wipe is rarely there for a pug. Pug's don't venture into the bleeding edge of what they can accomplish. They stay in a nice safe area where there are usually not enough mobs up at any given time to even get a good train going. I can count on one hand the number of times my druid had to evac on Mischief. It was always in a group of friends doing something we shouldn't have. I haven't evacced a pug in several TLPs. I have been in many pugs where 1 person died and we sure did wish we had a cleric to get them back up. It's a niche that happens far more often than evaccing. If your groups are evaccing on a regular basis you need to re-evaluate your playstyle.

    It's not so much that a druid can't fill the roles they are capable of filling. It's that they do so worse than every other choice. They don't exist in a vacuum. If a pug needs a healer 9 times out of 10 they will pick Cleric, Shaman, Druid in that order. If you pick a druid you are the exception that proves the rule. All of the rest of EQ is taking one of the other two healers. Healer mana is the #1 limiter of a group and both clerics and shaman have better mana efficiency or regen or the ability to reduce incoming damage. They will be able to heal for longer and rest less. If a group has the healer role filled they don't go looking for a second, they want a DPS, and there are half a dozen classes that do that better. Druids can't tank or slow so those roles are out. Their CC is mediocre, especially in tight spaces so they don't really get picked up for that either.

    I do think that druids could find a niche as a puller if they wanted to pug. Anyone can pull these days, just run out nuke something with your level 1 nuke and bring everything that comes with it back to the over geared, over leveled, meat grinder that is 95% of pugs. Root and a decent understanding of the aggro rules in EQ can be used to minimize incoming mobs if that is needed. The stupid little bear pet from velious is actually super handy for pulling mephits in the water in paw. No one likes to pull, so throwing on your LFG message that you are willing to pull could easily get you some group invites. Let the monk or bard stay in the group and DPS/Buff.

    What you personally think about druids does not change the reality that druids will sit LFG for longer than pretty much any other class. Don't play one if you don't have a group of friends playing that likes you for who you are. Or if you aren't willing to put together all of your own groups.
  16. code-zero Augur

    There are certain things about Shaman that are not positive.


    Shaman will hit you with tons of buffs, some short time, and frequently overwrite or block another classes self buff.

    Frequently the Shaman buff will be worse than useless so you click it off of block it.

    And then you have a pouty shaman trying to tell you how to play your class because Shaman buffs are obviously more important than any self buff

    After many years I don't care for the class at all based entirely on the kinds of people who play them

    If I have any say so I'll pick a Druid to come along over a Shaman any day. I leveled up a box Shaman for those times when I might need one which is almost never

    And, oh yeah, evac is actually a pretty big deal when you can get it
  17. Shakara Augur

    Exactly everyone has a ton of gear. Healers are not running out of mana unless its an server launch and you are lvl 1-40 naked and afraid. Most often you are trying to just cram as much DPS into a group as possible so you can mow down as many mobs as possible and druids fill this roll much better than both the other priests. Oh wait we pulled 20 instead of 10? Evac and go back to pulling.
  18. Triconix Augur

    I box a druid as well, but there's no doubt a sham is better for a warrior to box with. I love both druids and shams. Shams are just stupid broken early in the game. Hell, shams are stupid broken in every era. The things I can do on a sham on live are just dumb.

    PS the only thing a druid is doing for your group that you mentioned is porting. A sham is a superior healer and can sow. Plus bihli > soe if you're melee-centric.
    Gnothappening likes this.
  19. Gnothappening Augur

    I am six boxing so I am not melee much of anything other than a tank. I need pets and casters so that I can actually play them with any degree of usefulness. I also can't sit there and be doing canni dance a lot. I need as close to one button wonders as possible. Druid gives me ports and snare and POTG. Shaman would give me slightly better healing overall and better buffs. The trade off is a lot more attention.

    If I were two boxing, I would for sure take a shaman. But for six boxing I just can't.

    The reality is for me that I'm picking between wizard and druid vs druid and shaman. I can't give up ports, especially before Luclin.
    code-zero likes this.
  20. Trevalon Augur

    But why don't I just get a Cleric who can do it by themselves and doesn't need the Druid heals and then say get a Magician, who is going to significantly out dmg that druid and provide a better damage shield.

    For evacs? Do you know how many times I've had to evac a group in the last 3 tlps? None...not once...people know the pulls, know what comes when certain mobs are pulled...you don't get accidental pulls anymore, and if you do, you should get a new puller.

    And don't say you'd get the druid to solo heal your group...cause druids 100% cannot keep up with a properly pulling group in any era pre-OOW. Yea if your group is crap and pulls 2 mobs at a time, they MIGHT keep up, but if the group is solid you should never have less than 3-5 in your pulls and a druid will never be able to keep up.

    Sorry guys, but druids are not a very good class. Do the have a niche? Sure, like charming in Chardok or Plvling before bards become better at it...but that is all Druids are, a niche class that really has no place when compared to other, better, classes.