whitened treat fist vs bare fists for monk

Discussion in 'Time Locked Progression Servers' started by cymru, Sep 1, 2015.

  1. cymru Lorekeeper

    did a gamparse with whitened treant fists x2 from sky vs bare fists over 8 mins of combined fighting on elementals in the hole at level 46. using shaman str, dex buffs and haste plus worn haste of 21%.


    bare fists dps: 34 dps
    whitened treant fists: 34 dps + 11 procs over 8 mins of a heal. 143 dex.


    I'll get back to you on dps at 50.


    on a side note: shaman pet did 22 dps with str and haste buff.
    Member of Midnight Phyre.
  2. captnstudy Lorekeeper

    Interesting. ..would say based on this monk epic would be worth it now... but at 60 your fists are 22/ 24 so at some point it's not worth to wear it anymore I would think
  3. taliefer Augur


    this doesnt appear to be the case anymore. apparently monk fists are a fixed delay of 38, wether by breaking something or a stealth change. 38 delay is so bad for a main hand weapon.

    https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq/index.php?threads/level-50-monk-fist-dps.224350/
  4. Kattahn Elder


    At 50, whitened treant fists for mainhand should be better or at least the same as bare fists.

    The ratio of fists at 50 is 21/38, yielding a 1.809 ratio, vs the 2.0 ratio of the 14/28 WTF. We have a slightly worse ratio, but a significantly faster swing speed, which will yield more damage bonus, and the ability to throw a proc on there. Just off napkin math it should be similar or better then fists, but I haven't fully parsed it out yet. My monk is only 47 now, but once he is 50 im going to try to 2box him with my shaman for some long term parsing.

    As for offhand, WTF should be a DPS decrease over bare fists. The faster swing speed is not relevant in offhand, and the offhand proc rate is abysmal. In offhand, pre-AAs, ratio is king, and the bare fists have a better ratio.
  5. cymru Lorekeeper

    "As for offhand, WTF should be a DPS decrease over bare fists. The faster swing speed is not relevant in offhand, and the offhand proc rate is abysmal. In offhand, pre-AAs, ratio is king, and the bare fists have a better ratio"




    Ya i was kinda hinting that if I was going to get a raid fist it should be better then my bare fist and that this is somehow broken? I wonder if they could change the WTF ratio and make it better?
  6. Protocol Dragon Defender

  7. captnstudy Lorekeeper

    I thought off hand had a fixed delay and the only thing that made a difference was weapon dmg?
  8. Kattahn Elder


    Bare fists will be our best offhand for quite a while. In kunark they go to 23/38, or 23/26 with epic. At this point, they may also edge out mainhand wu's tranquil fists, as the 23/26 ratio of 1.13 is only 4 delay slower then the 16/22 ratio of 1.375. Unless we get better proc augs in kunark, 70 dd @ 2-3 ppm isn't going to make up for that ratio difference i dont think. None of the VP weapons should come close to this.

    Where it gets interesting is with 2handers in kunark. TStaff and RFS should outdps bare fists without epic @ 60, and with epic its tough to say but i think bare fists will win out @ 23/26. The 40/35(or 42/35, not sure which version we'll get)2hander from VP should beat out fists, though.
  9. Kattahn Elder


    That was kind of an old wives tale most of us believed back in the day, but was eventually disproven.It was mostly due to EQ only having 1 second timestamps in logs, which often made it look like your offhand was only swinging linked to your mainhand.

    You can put a non attackable weapon in your mainhand and still get offhand swings. Every time your offhand delay comes up, it rolls a DW check to see if it swings.
    captnstudy likes this.
  10. captnstudy Lorekeeper

    Ahhhhh, that would be why that was my thought, played hardcore from classic thru velious and then stopped =P. So the best ratio for offhand then?
  11. cymru Lorekeeper



    Ok I am confused now. Are you saying the ratio is better on WTF vs bare fists for main hand and not as good for secondary? I guess I haven't read alot on secondary dps and I don't understand why.
  12. Kattahn Elder


    Yes, until AAs come out, ratio is king for offhand.


    Sorry I was replying to another comment, and i think things got confused

    WTF is a worse ratio mainhand then bare fists, but due to a significantly lower delay, and the added procs, it should parse similar or better to the bare fists. Damage bonus is a flat number added to every main hand melee swing. It does not scale with delay until a weapon crosses 40 delay. Because of this, for mainhand, lower delay is usually better, except when looking at significant ratio differences. This is further compounded by the 40% damage mitigation from TLPS raid targets, as i believe the 40% is factored in before damage bonus is applied. I haven't parsed this extensively but on raid targets i notice a TON of hits for my damage bonus value, which has lead me to believe that the initial hit gets reduced, and then the damage bonus comes in. Ultimately what it comes down to, is when mobs mitigate a ton of your damage, the more times you can apply that damage bonus, the better, thus faster weapons are generally best for mainhand.

    Finally, you are correct, WTF is not a good secondary, as it has a worse ratio then the bare fists, and the offhand does not give any advantage to faster delays. Offhand does not get the damage bonus i mentioned earlier, so it comes down to just ratio vs ratio, and the bare fist ratio of 1.809 is superior to the 2.0 ratio of the WTF.
  13. Protocol Dragon Defender

    We should make a tier list for monk weapons and in that list include Monk fists @ 50, 60 and with and without epic.

    Weapons with potential to beat fists in Kunark are:
    Tranquil Staff
    http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=572

    Bo Staff of Trorsmang
    http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=3731

    Ton Po's Bo Stick of Understanding (Probably won't drop)
    http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=586

    Weapons with potential to beat fists in Classic are:
    Whitened Treant Fists
    Wu's Fists of Mastery
  14. Kattahn Elder


    We also have to compare it against epic fists, which as far as we know now are 23/26 delay. And the 60 dmg/dly is 23/38.

    for a non epic monk, Stave of shielding @ 17/28 becomes better in offhand and mainhand then bare fists, surpassed only by the 16/22 sky fist, which is not lore and can be dual wielded.

    *editing because i didnt realize the 16/22 was not lore and can be DW'd)
  15. Kattahn Elder

    So to clarify:

    Ranked best to worst
    AT 50:
    MH
    1. Wu's Tranquil Fist(16/22)
    2. Whitened Treant Fists(14/28)
    2/3. Bare Fists(21/38)
    OH
    1. Wu's Tranquil Fist(16/22)
    2. Bare Fists(21/38)
    2H:
    None viable

    AT 60:
    MH:
    1. Epic Fist(23/26)
    2. Wu's Tranquil Fist(16/22)
    3. Stave of Shielding(17/28)
    4. Bare Fist(23/38)
    OH:
    1. Epic Fist(23/26)
    2. Wu's Tranquil Fist(16/22)
    3. Stave of Shielding(17/28)
    4. Bare Fist(23/38)
    2H:
    1. Bo Staff of Trorsmang(40/35 or 42/35, depending on which version we get)
    2. Tranquil Staff(29/30)
    3. Imbued Fighters Staff(38/40)
    4. Peacebringer(28/30)
  16. Protocol Dragon Defender

    So are epic fists at 60 better than the two handers?
  17. Kattahn Elder


    that is much tougher to say. Won't know until we are in kunark and able to parse them.

    the VP 2hander should absolutely be best in slot DPS.

    Tstaff is a single 29/30 ratio, + proc, vs 2x 23/26 1handers with no procs. They should be relatively close. IFS will probably get beat out by epic fists, and peacemaker almost surely will. All those 2handers should beat out non epic fists, though.
  18. RainbowTest Augur

    Epic bare fists rule until the PoAir fists and shinai of the ancients. I said the whole time in classic that the fists were not BIS but nobody listened to me you all quoted that beta forum post that assumed epics at 50.
  19. Kattahn Elder


    23/26 fists are beat out by VTC fangs @ 17/19, from ssra temple. Baton of flame, fist of lightning, wurmscale fistwraps, Gharn's Rock of Smashing, and fist of nature from velious should all be better mainhands then the 23/26 epic fists.

    Most of the sub 1 ratio 2handers should be competitive or beat out the epic fists, as well.
  20. Aneuren Tempered Steel


    Don't feel too bad, the Warrior community told Sony that there was some kind of legacy coding on the taunt cap for something like ten years before they finally found and removed it.
    Bewts likes this.