Which classes use Dichotomic in group/raid?

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by IblisTheMage, Dec 29, 2017.

  1. Maedhros Augur

    So you can't see the value in an instant cast group heal?
    Some pro-tips for ya since you clearly need it.
    When you or your group mates are taking heavy damage and Aurora or Wave are too slow, you are down to Hand of Piety, Lay of Hands, Reflexive and Marrs Gift as your only instant cast heals not counting potions.
    The one minute refresh on Dicho is far faster than all of them.
    If you're not casting Dicho at least once every few minutes than you are a pretty weak paladin.
    Also, how the hell is Expiation not on your spell bar?

    I really didn't like Paladin Dicho at first, because when you compare it to ranger or berserker it seemed like a joke. I gave it thought though and worked it into my spell bar and now its one of my most useful tools.
  2. Odiiusx New Member

    I hate finding out that I am a "terrible paladin" this way (iaw yepmetoo), but I use Dicho all the time. To each his own I guess.
  3. IblisTheMage Augur

    I am writing a wiki-article on Epic, Dicho, Alliance, and Unity, intention is to make it easier for returning players to understand the expansion specific class extentions. I will build a table. I think it will be easier to understand which things to spend time on, and which to ignore, for returning (new) players.

    I don't have any illusions that anything will be changed because of this.
    Kaenneth and Fanra like this.
  4. yepmetoo Augur

    Maybe if you would listen to people in guilds progressing faster than yours once in awhile, instead of constantly thinking you are the be all end all of paladins, guild leaders, raiders, groupers, and everything in between, you'd see your guild get as far as you spouted off about a few years ago.

    Dicho as an "emergency heal" is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. The darn thing CRITS for like less than 65k. So unless you're raiding Underfoot, maybe you should try using tools that can do the job. Comparing it to tools that heal for up to 250k is absurd. That is called making excuses.

    But hey, maybe if you bothered to gear appropriately and had beneficial spell range instead of magelo padding with 2 "tank" rings, your heals would have the range to heal people with burst rather than having to rely on a heal that would have been good 7-8 years ago that happens to have high range on its heal recourse.

    The fact you say you mem expiate AND dicho means you are crippling your aggro or heal abilities. But hey, if you do nothing but heal, I guess you can sacrifice tanking tools. Or if you don't heal I suppose you can sacrifice healing tools. For marginal value toys. Good paladins make use of their flexibility and spell set accordingly when raiding. Otherwise, no point in even having a paladin there.

    Those tools have their place, very very VERY RARELY (and more in group game or solo play than raids, that's for sure). If we were swimming in spell gems they would be fantastic tools. If they were AA they would be great.

    But the bottom line is that the relative value of them pales in comparison to the relative value of the other tools we have, regardless of you coming up with some random rare situation where one of them "might" be better. You might as well never hit shield flash, defensive discs, AoI, or dps discs on refresh because, hey, you "might" need them. That is what ineffective players do, after all.

    People like Zard at least are honest about it, finding some use in it, but you are just being pathetic. You are so insecure about your own abilities that you constantly attack anyone that criticizes something you do or who criticizes anything you do, and then use absurd hyperbole ("it is one of my most useful tools").

    Because of the 13 slot spell gem limitations it is not a good spell in practice, period. For the same reason steely stance or rejuvenating are bad spells. The only situations you really need it, you are better off using something else, and on balance, the other options will be more effective over time in actual play.
  5. Seldom Augur

    Claiming that if you aren't casting Pal dicho every couple minutes then you're weak is same as stating spell is 100% worthless and a paladin is terrible for using it. Respect the difference in play styles and different levels of play/teammates without insulting. Going at it with good players of your own class is silly =p. Much more annoying than War vs Knight envy or whatever IMO. Sorry for the semi derail Iblis, look forward to reading your chart and hope the Pal advice hasn't been too conflicting!
  6. mmats Augur

    I think the real question is - when are people using cleric dicho?
  7. kizant Augur

    I agree with the comments other wizards have made. Although, I'd like to point out that it's not a large DPS gain for us. And there are certain cases where you may want to avoid using it. But it is good 80% of the time. It's basically 'just' good enough to be useful but not so good that if we lost it that our DPS would suffer much.
  8. Bjpotratz New Member

    I've seen this stated before, but didn't think it was true so I finally decided to test it (the part about not being enhanced by FD, AD).

    I cast dicho 30 times without any special abilities running and got 17 crits (56.7%) at 727144dmg (no variation). I then cast it 20 more times with FD running and got 20 crits (100%) at 837123dmg (no variation). So it appears that both the crit dmg and crit chance effects on FD are functioning on dicho. The crit damage increase from 2nd spire and improved familiar also work. Worn fire focus, improved familiar dmg focus, and Arcane Fury do not (which makes sense since they have level limits and the dmg portion of dicho is a level 250 spell).

    Personally I use dicho during burns (not when spell twincast is active) and outside of burns on gom proc.
    Jumbur and kizant like this.
  9. kizant Augur

    I haven't been reading posts too closely but you're right about Wiz Dicho. It benefits from AD/FD just fine but it does use the double counters. Which considering the damage it does is almost reasonable.I generally was using it on shorter burns where I didn't need all the FD/AD counters anyway.

    However, for RoS I wouldn't really use it during a burn IF you have at least rank 2 of Icefloe. If you only have rank 1 and you're comparing to Dicho 6 then dicho should have higher DPS. But once you get rank 2 of Icefloe I don't believe that is still the case. With rank 3 definitely don't use Dicho anymore until at least ITC is finished. And really Skyblaze rank 3 is better than Icefloe rank 1 and dicho during a burn too so there's that to think about.
    Jumbur likes this.
  10. Maedhros Augur

    I don't know who you are, but you said this on September 19th:
    So to 99% of EQ players that means you're in ROI, well done.
    I still don't know which Paladin on their roster is you, but it sure seems like your status in the top guild makes you believe you're the top paladin?
    And if I would just listen to you, as pointed out in your top quote, my guild would be what, the new top guild?
    I may be the top paladin or I may not be. There are dozens of other paladins who think that they are the number 1 but the best of the best competition went away almost 2 decades ago. I can live with being one of the top.
    Same goes for my guild. It is not the top guild, but it has climbed steadily and persistently over the last few years since I created it and I can live with that too. As I often ask people like you, what have you done besides join a top guild? I created one with a lot of help from players who believe in me and my guild.

    Either way, you claim that paladins like me are terrible because of my use of Dichotomic, and your refusal to use it in favor of... a nuke.. that you have listed on your ideal set makes you not terrible? Great bud, I can live with that too.

    To any of the other paladins reading this thread, I can assure you that Dicho can be an awesome tool if used the right way. I hit this thing all the time, both to save myself and any group mates that need it. Its not as big a heal as Wave, but it can be cast while moving instantly. How many times do you notice a group mate is going down and 1.8 seconds are too long to save them, while hoping you will channel the wave? I would say fairly often.

    Or you can take the advice of Yepmetoo, the cowering, anonymous forum troll and load up that nuke instead.
  11. Ofearl Augur

    Well my monk and ranget are 105/106 and havent seen much of RoS as of exp and thus as I am more concerned about getting my Pally thru his AA’s and raids.
  12. yepmetoo Augur

    This right here encapsulates the problem in a nutshell. You simply cannot deal with any contradictory thought without logic and instead just go to hyperbole, insults, oversimplification, and strawman arguments. Things like what you did in this very thread, where you "quote" someone and change what they said to something insulting. That's why I dislike your forum presence. Not because of your arrogance, not even your condescending manner, but, rather, your complete lack of anything to back it up with anything but sputtering indignation and obfuscation.

    Many of us can be hyperbolic and make absolute statements that we really don't believe in their extreme. Heck, I do all the time, and did in this thread. But any reasoned reading of what I've written in subsequent posts makes very clear that 1) I think there are some very rare situations where it could be used (though in raiding anything current since it came out, I just don't see), and 2) I don't have any issue with paladins that basically said, "yeah, its not the best, but I use it sometimes", considering the context of the original point was some warrior claiming it was some amazing tool (which you, in your infinite wisdom, are somehow agreeing with, just to defend using it), and I clearly pointed out the problem with it, in that it has a 60 second recast and requires a spell gem.

    For example, I am the one that gave a spell line up, gave options, gave reasons in terms of tradeoffs, and yet that makes me the "forum troll" versus the guy that goes, essentially, "its fantastic! it's great! trust me! its's one of our best tools!" with zero backing up of it. The only thing you even said in favor of it is as an emergency heal, which is demonstrable poor play and decision making considering the alternatives.

    But of course, you just respond with no logical or factual objection to what I said, and then oversimplify in an attempt to deflect for some third party, that I said to "mem a nuke instead". That is what reasonable human beings call being a deceitful person.

    What I said, was if you want aggro, you're better off using the nuke (unless there is something you don't want to damage, but of course, in that case, if there is one in modern raids, its doubtful holding aggro is a problem in the first place), as it will generate more aggro overall (in fact, significantly more, particularly if the debuff lands).

    I also said, if you need healing you would remove that nuke and use a REAL HEAL in its place, not dicho. And that's the problem. Dicho's value in any particular situation (outside of some group situations or solo) is not big enough for any particular facet, compared to other options in our spell book, meaning you are hurting your own ability to deal with incoming situations. That means you are playing with a handicap for no reason, and means that your judgement has put you behind where you should be.

    Does that really make you a "terrible paladin"? No. But it sure doesn't make you a smart one with regard to that particular facet of play.

    With regard to "who I am", anyone that has been reading these forums for years in terms of tanks or paladins probably knows exactly who I am. I don't hide it. Heck, send me a PM and I'll respond with the character name. I've around 8000 posts between the various iterations of the forums in the past couple of decades. Sad, but whatever. The 2 years of hyper sensitive moderation really hurt this community forum in terms of active intelligent (if argumentative and/or arrogant) posters. But c'est la vie.

    Do I think I'm the "top paladin"? I don't even know what that means. But you apparently (in the very post I'm responding to) think of yourself as the or one of the. This game is not that hard, gear is a joke, exp gains are a joke, the raids are not overly complex except learning them the first time at worst. Stuff is spoon fed to us, so I don't know what would make one a "top" whatever these days. But considering the apps that come in thinking they are hot stuff and get revealed quickly they are not, the game must be harder than I give it credit for. I'm just an old school obsessive player that is enjoying the twilight years of this game and playing 5-10 hours a week versus the 10 hours a day I used to. I've been a raid leader in basically every guild until my current one, and I'm glad to not be doing it. I try and give my input when learning new events if I think I have a valid point, and sometimes I'm wrong, sometimes I'm right, but its a contribution in some form. I play how I'm comfortable playing, meaning I don't use any audio triggers, I play in first person, and I use the mouse WAY more than would be the best. So no, I don't think I'm "the top paladin" or even some mythical "top player". I play my role, and if I'm paying attention to the game rather than kids or falling asleep, then I do my job for the most part.

    What I am, is intelligent enough to be able to comprehend game mechanics (as long as I am aware of all the facts, I can be wrong about facts just like anyone else), and to understand when things are good, bad, or indifferent.

    For example, right now, ac, hdex, hagi are basically worthless to tanks in raids. The gear is basically the same and the mechanics of melee damage as it is mean there is no longer any real value in obsessive min maxing of it. In truth, stacking hSta is the smart play. But I don't bother, because I don't care, and in the long run, its pretty obvious that none of our gear matters anyway because YOU DON'T NEED A SINGLE PIECE OF CURRENT CONTENT GEAR TO BEAT CURRENT CONTENT, i.e., gear is irrelevant. So I don't go posting about the "injustice" of having to use a ring with 30-40 less ac for a focus and turn a mole hill into a mountain. Make note of it and move on, no need to pretend you're a martyr over it.

    What I'm getting at, is any value in what you try and get across is diminished by your strident manner that is off-putting and makes people roll their eyes. You are so hyper defensive that you can't let anything go or be reasonable. I mean, the best you could do would be to ignore this entire post and not respond again. But I have a hard time believing you can do that. But hey, prove me wrong. *shrug*
  13. Maedhros Augur

    99% of this above is logical and level headed, and yet nearly every other post I read of yours makes my blood boil. There are many ways to play a paladin and nearly every other class and I respect that. Some paladins are more of a backup cleric, some are more of a main tank, most fall somewhere in between.
    I take issue with your comment about paladins that use Dicho are terrible. It flies in the face of reason that you cannot find a spot on your spell bar for Dicho, but you have a spot for Wave and a nuke.
    To each his own I suppose. I just feel that you are biased against Dicho because lets face it, it isnt a big flashy spam tool like berserker or ranger, it requires alot more presence of mind to look at the paladin dicho and see the incredible usefulness that that spell can be. I was one of the loudest voices opposed to Dicho in TBM beta, and yet here I stand after years of using it to great effect now defending it.
    Since you want spell line ups here you go:
    I have some event specific sets that I get more into heal mode, or more into tank mode, but this is my typical raid spell set.
    1. Expiation
    2. Dicho
    3. Splash
    4. Protective Devotion
    5. Burst
    6. Preservation of Rodcet
    7. Censure
    8. Brilliant
    9. Valiant
    10. Refute
    11. Crush
    12. Crush
    13. Harmonious

    That accounts for my bread and butter on 90% of raids.
    If I need to go more heals. I can dump Preservation for another Burst, and Harmoniuos for a Wave.
    Single target agro is not an issue this expansion like it was just a month ago.
    I don't know why you're struggling for agro so much that you need to load 2 extra agro spells, and yet dont see the potential for Dicho on burst agro. If youre using Force of Mercy with its long recast, you are going to get more Agro and healing from using Dicho instead per minute.
  14. Wulfhere Augur

    For me, Dicho only cast during Prince raid while add tanking alchemists. Looking at my spell bar, Dicho (or Alliance) has replaced Aurora in raid the past year and change. So basically never memorize Aurora in raid anymore. Never memorize Dicho in group.
  15. Zehn Lorekeeper

    I don't post much here, but in this post alone, all I read is "I'm right because I explained it better, and you're wrong because you're arrogant." We are talking about 1 spell in a line up, possibly two if we want to get into the debate of why having a quick non-target self heal like expiation is useful.

    I am confident with my spell line up, with or without Dichto spell you'd be hard pressed to see the difference in my ability to get agro, hold agro, tank, and heal when, and if needed. You may be right, in the fact that if I ever app'd your guild I may come in thinking I am a hot shot, and possibly could leave with my tail tween my legs. But I assure you, it wouldnt be because I dared use the dichto spell and you dont use it. I am a pretty confident paladin. If I didnt cut the mustard ....it would be my attitude that did me in, and not skill. Both of you are putting out pages (threads, posts you know what I mean) of "evidence" of why you're right and the other guy is wrong, when in reality the differences you guys are talking is almost unable to see unless you parse every class and every cast. Quite frankly it's insulting wilth how much work I put into playing my paladin how you are trying to sell 1 spell is the critical difference between solid play, and unintelligent play.
    Brohg and Maedhros like this.
  16. Cicelee Augur

    The only thing I know about paladins are, the best of the best Paladins tank without a shield...

    ps If you took that seriously, you should be suspended from EQ for a week so you can refocus your attention on smiling...
    Maedhros likes this.
  17. Act of Valor Augur

    A stun that doesn't stun current content makes it a waste of space in my spell lineup, in my opinion. The instant cast and group heal is nice, but I would rather have other spells using that gem that don't have a one minute cooldown.
  18. mmats Augur

    I have never played a paladin, so I can say with confidence that youre an idiot if you use dicho and youre an idiot if you dont use dicho.
    Tatanka likes this.
  19. Wuddane Lorekeeper

    It's getting real moist in here watching these paladins brawl in out. I just know my guild is glad I am not a paladin, thus I can't lay my hands on them.

    Shadowknight dicho is terrible, never use it. Needs recast to be 50 seconds quicker and all effects at least doubled.

    Come at me trolls
    Sheex likes this.
  20. mmats Augur

    SK dicho is best bread. Youre the worst for not writing home to gam-gam about it.

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