Which classes use Dichotomic in group/raid?

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by IblisTheMage, Dec 29, 2017.

  1. Ratbo Peep Augur

    The new expansion kind of "broke" the Ranger class Dicho as it's use was not expanded to cast the latest version of "Summers" etc. (nor given an AA focus chance to expand it).
    I know the same goes for the Shaman "multi-dot" spell and I suspect other classes as well.
    So no Dicho for me when raiding. I sometimes use it in group content for an "opening assault" on a Mob if I have no fear of the MT losing agro - or I'm single tanking a critter.
    -R (magelo WAY out of date - on my "to do" list.)
  2. Ratbo Peep Augur

    Class envy wars have always been a part of EQ - that will never change.
    In my personal experience it seems the Pally class has less tools to "snap aggro" a mob, and also falls behind in AE agro ability. But that could just me my personal experiences with Pallys tanking.
    -R
  3. gotwar Augur

    Enchanter Dicho gets used pretty much on cooldown. Group and raid. I even frequently use it solo. Would rate it as one of the best Dichos, but my opinion is biased.
  4. Lily Augur

    I have chanter dicho on a multi-bind key (first spell up). I use it for raids, so it's used as often as possible. I don't typically use it in groups.
  5. p2aa Augur

    There has always been class envy in each tank type. Have you read tank forums in the last year ? There has been more class envy knight than war recently.

    Warriors fell behind a lot in the AE aggro ability department too since the massive recent nerf to our AE aggro abilities.
    One of our best single target aggro ability, phantom agressor, is still broken on group mobs, the pet tank instead of us and die too fast, so not giving the full aggro it could accumulate to us.
    And even pressing taunt every 6 sec to get back aggro does not save him.
    Thanks god the pet work properly in raid content.
  6. Brohg Augur



    Ah, so that's why you never load or cast Expiation/Grief/Sorrow? Because you're not one of the bad paladins? Even multiple of those, to simulate having lower recast on them?

    OR, is it worth it to you to give up a spell that cannot be interrupted, heals the whole group at the same time, reinforces your agro, and refreshes in 40% of the time - just to gain another woe-is-me ******** story about how put-upon your class is?
  7. mmats Elder


    Do you still cast it when running twincast etc? Or only cast it during GoM? Trying to figure out what contexts are best for using it...
  8. Andarriel Augur

    I only use on GoM really unless I want a chance to crit big. dico doesn't work on twincast if it did that would be awesome.

    Andarriel
    mmats likes this.
  9. Jumbur Augur

    Actually, it doesn't twincast either, so don't use it when normal twincast is active either.

    Casting it during gom is a good idea, since it is expensive, but im not really holding back and waiting for gom either.

    Tbh, I often forget to cast it with my regular spell-weave, but thats just me being bad...:(
    Casting it often when twincast, ITC, frenzied/arcane destruction is down, is the way to go, imo. Depends on your mana, though.

    It is good for handling problematic aggro when mind crash and concussive intuition is down.
    mmats likes this.
  10. yepmetoo Augur

    No, I'm just someone that understands our class. Unlike you, who think you understand every class better than every other player of that class.

    Can't spend much time, about to do our 5th kill of the RoS raids in a few minutes, but here is some reality:

    13 spell gems:

    Needed for aggro/tanking:

    1) Preservation
    2) Valiant
    3) Crush (rarely stun)
    4) Crush (sometimes stun)
    5) Refute
    6) Force/hot (variable slot) (usually harmonious)

    Heals:

    7) Burst
    8) Wave
    9) Splash
    10) Protective
    11) Admonish

    Utility:

    12) Brilliant (twinheal)
    13) Combo nuke (variable slot) - aggro and ac debuff

    So what would I drop for an 18k group heal, single target stun, with 1 minute recast? Only possible things would be #6:

    So trade equivalent aggro, but 2 casts to 1, so choice is:

    A) 8 ticks (base) of 8k self-healing versus B) 18k (base) group heal
    A) 8 seconds of mob stun versus B) 4 seconds of mob stun <-- on stunnable mobs anyway
    A) 11k base aggro (2 casts) C) 11k base aggro (1 casts)
    A) Ability to cast n*X+1 times (depending on mob lifespan) versus B) X times

    OR #13:

    So:

    A) no healing versus B) 18k base group heal
    A) no stun B) 4 seconds of mob stun
    A) 15k aggro per minute (3.3 casts) versus (and this is much higher against undead or summoned) B) 11k base aggro (1 cast)
    A) 468 ac debuff and 10% damage taken increase on the mob vs B) N/A

    So there are some arguments you could make in favor of using dicho instead of those. It isn't healing. It isn't stunning. It isn't more aggro. It is 1) faster initial aggro, and 2) instant cast versus 0.4 and 0.5 seconds.

    Of course, the problem with that, is that if I drop one of those slots for something, it is never dicho. It is harmonious. It is another group heal. It is our big single target heal. It is aurora heal. Heck, it is sometimes the magic debuff spell or a second combo nuke. Maybe even expiation in a blue moon situation.

    None of the other 11 spells are something I remove from the lineup except for RARE situations (and of those, usually just wave heal or splash heal depending on the event).

    But here's the funny thing:

    I don't know ANY good paladins that use dicho. None in my guild do. I don't personally talk to anyone outside of the guild that does. The only ones I've seen arguing for it are people like you, that don't play a paladin, casual grouper paladins and people in lower end guilds that tend to not even know why me and so many other paladins shake our heads at it.

    You might as well be talking about "why don't you use revitalizing, its basically a complete heal instantly!".
  11. Oakenblade Elder


    All the time
  12. Jaerlyn Augur

    I hate to say this to you... but you are being a baby. And are a Paladin making stuff up about Paladins. While the value of our dicho can be debated, if you had to add both pres and hate over time to keep aggro, you need to work on your aggro lineup more.
  13. yepmetoo Augur

    Nope, I just play with competent dps. You should try it sometime, its a whole different game. Explains a lot about why every darn event needs to get nerfed down to lowest common denominator dps if paladins that consider themselves raiders can grab and keep aggro effectively against their dps guildmates, without the 15% hate mod and the huge hate over time we were just given.
  14. Yinla Augur

    As a wizzy I used to use it all the time in both raids and groups, since ROS I've been using it a lot less due to fire being resisted in a lot of zones.

    I'm still playing around with spells and trying to figure out what lands on what mobs where. :(
    kizant likes this.
  15. Seldom Augur

    Paladin dicho is one of the weaker dichos by large margin. It is still highly logical to load in a few situations though but isn't a complete game changer by any means. Same category as Steely, very niche. Many good Paladins never load it, though I've encountered some top knotch ones that enjoy utilizing it every now and then. Vast majority of class dichos are still highly important and especially were when more current/pre nerf bat.
    Brohg likes this.
  16. dwish Augur

    I don't understand the point of this thread. If you think the mage dicho needs to be improved (which I'm guessing this thread is a roundabout way of indicating this) then just say as much when you start the posting.
  17. Sancus Augur

    Let's leave Mage Dicho in the ash heap of failed EQ developer ideas where it belongs.
    Sheex and Brohg like this.
  18. Zardifo Stonefist Augur

    Ive been known to keep it memmed in both group and raid settings. I feel it is very situational but I enjoy it more in group than raid. Out of the usual Pal’s in the raid its a mix of some use some dont.

    Now on my ranger and monk, i keep it down as much as I can.
  19. Ratbo Peep Augur

    Even though it triggers casts from the old spell set, as opposed to current?
    -R
  20. Cicelee Augur

    I think it is safe to say that all magicians know how poor our class Dicho is, and has known for a long time. As I mentioned earlier I might be the only one that uses it, and even then it is rarely on raids and dropping in usage as we go on. It is almost as if I feel like since I have it, I might as well get some use out of it. But the alternatives are starting to get more powerful that it is phasing out my usage.

    I do not necessarily believe OP created this thread to champion a mage Dicho change, cause no change is ever happening. I don't believe there was a hidden agenda, just someone curious about the rest of the classes and their Dicho usage...
    Fanra, Lily and IblisTheMage like this.

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