what I truly would like to see happen in the future in regards to buffing.

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Shoryuureppa, Nov 12, 2019.

  1. Shoryuureppa New Member

    currently we already know the big buffs come from shaman and clerics and a few other great buffs that come from rangers/beastlords which are unique to their class.

    but what makes me scratch my head are classes like druids that get buffs which are pretty much useless (unless I am wrong and there is a point to druid buffs) and paladins that get brells line of spells which are great but get overwritten by the rangers buffs which makes casting brells worthless in raids or group content with a ranger in the party, and paladins get a similar aegolism buffs like clerics, but is unique to paladins, only problem is, these spells are worthless in this day and age where you can get a healer merc and get the better aego spell.

    it would be really awesome if these spells can finally stack and really make the classes with these buffs feel more wanted, otherwise whats the point in wasting time and resource making these spells that will most likely never be used?

    I can understand the early days of EQ when getting buffed was sometimes a real big pain in the behind, so it made sense paladins and cleric both shared the same buffs, but clerics always had a better version, the paladin could always pop up their buffs and make do if there was no cleric around.

    seeing as how hard mobs hit in the higher levels 106-110 and soon 115, I don't think having say cleric and paladin buffs stacking together would make a huge impact on making enemies trivial.

    i know there is probably some technical mumbo jumbo at play as well, but overall this type of change would be more on the positive side I feel.
    Dzarn likes this.
  2. Bigstomp Augur

    As soon as you said druid and pally buffs are useless I tuned out.
  3. Shoryuureppa New Member

    thank you for your input
  4. Vumad Augur

    You are working with a lot of bad information.

    Rangers don't overwrite pallies. Pallies, rangers and bst have spells on the same line. Brell's is HP while strength is attack, with BST being between ranger and pally in hp and atk. They block each other but they do not overwrite. Generally melee uses strength while casters use brells, but you can make a choice in raids, and any of them are useful in groups.

    Druid buff has mana regen and stacks with symbol meaning druid skin is a better buff than assurance. A merc will cast symbol on you if you have skin.

    So, your raid best buffs are...

    druid skin
    cleric symbol
    pally brells (or ranger strength)
    beast SA
    enc clarity and haste
    shaman HP and stats
    mage mod rod

    Exception is the pally which is better off with assurance and self buff becaus of the extra AC over skin and symbol, but only applies to pallies because it is a self buff.

    The pally Hp buffs wont ever stack with the cleric HP buffs because Pallies are a cleric warrior hybrid so if you look at the pally HP buff line you will see it's just low level cleric spells renamed. The other pally HP buff is a self only buff which stacks with assurance, for more AC, which is why pallies are the only ones not using druid skin on a raid. And brells does stack with all of it.
    Laurana, Fanra, Yinla and 3 others like this.
  5. Shoryuureppa New Member

    ok so druids add a mana regen, i didn't know that and something I just learned, but overall, to the simpleton, all these buff blocks, and buff gymnastics is a chore and not fun when you have to jump loops to see which buffs works and which ones wont work, the hardcore types probably likes the current set up, the average joe with a small group/guild certainly would prefer a more simpler method.

    also, why add high level paladin buffs if it will never stack with clerics now? I already stated that I understood back in the days clerics and paladins SHARED the same buffs with the same name because it made sense when there were no mercs, but why even bother giving paladins buffs like that in the first place?
  6. Alekzandre Augur

    EQ is not WoW. Part of the fun is learning how things work, without it being spoon fed to you. Grouping with people and experiencing the game to learn..
  7. Shoryuureppa New Member

    I never once said EQ is WoW or wanted EQ to be like WoW, I have been grouping with a small family guild (14 people), so I have been learning as I go, I was just merely wondering why even bother giving paladins buff at the high levels if it wont even be used because access to a better buff is so simple, I would rather see those spells have more purpose, how would making a paladin buff stack with the cleric buff make this game like WoW? even with both buffs on, I am sure mobs could still tear down players with ease if the players are still not careful.

    I would rather classes like paladins that get the cleric style aego be able to use it somehow, rather then it just be another unused icon in the spellbook.
  8. Tucoh Augur

    Buff/SPA stacking is one of the biggest and central complexities of EQ. It extends way beyond the layer of long-term buffs you're considering now. Learning how buffs stack, what order to trigger your short-term buffs (called burns / cooldowns) and how to decide when to activate buffs based on what others activate is the core of learning how to deliver DPS or maintain good survivability as a tank.

    Players are always looking to get EQ devs to resolve stacking issues so that our characters can be a little more effective, but I think we all accept that there will always be stacking issues whether it's conflict between different cle/dru HP buffs, conflict between many different Hundred Hand Effect buffs or conflict between the non-stacking crit damage.

    My recommendation is to first learn how all this stuff works (It's not easy) before stepping up to the plate to suggest changes.
  9. Niloiv Elder

    Some things to consider
    1) stacking has to do with "buff" balance in an optimal raid situation. If Pally, cleric, druid, ranger buffs all stacked, the developers would have to assume that all players would have optimal buffs at all times. Gear stats would need to be changed; NPC stat blocks would need to be changed. If you die in raids, you need to communicate with people to get optimal buffs again - it is a challenge and a great penalty for death in the raid.
    Which in turn, this "balance" also affects group content. Currently, they assume you wont always be "raid-buffed" in group content, but I promises you that if all buffs stacked, everyone would be raid buffed, and group content would be forced to be tuned with that - probably not a good idea.
    2) it keeps class uniqueness. If they all stacked, why not give each of those classes the same buff that gives the same stats, then you will also have a buff even if you cant find a druid. (this is where your thought chain should eventually lead you, which feels more like the model that Blizzard has taken)
    3) Those "lesser" buffs ARE still useful, just not ALWAYS useful. EQ gives classes a bunch of niche tools. This system rewards those players who know their class really well and how their class interacts with other classes.
  10. Fire_Wiz New Member

    Helluva thread title. Would love to read some of your writings, musings, maybe a memoir.
  11. Zipe Augur

    I would like to clarify something about cleric and symbol/druid skin usage.
    Cleric self buff is better than running skin if you want more mana regeneration and AC.
    That's depending on the era you are playing. For example, on earlier eras a raid may prefer Aegolism line instead of symbol and skin line because of buff slots. Depending on your class of course, since some classes may be loaded with more buffs/selfbuffs.
    On modern eras, you get more buff slots and also skin starts giving endurance generation thus making it mandatory for endurance spenders.
    Currently, on RoF era that we are on Phinigel... paladins and clerics are running aegolism line with self buff while mostly rest of the raid is using symbol/skin. Aegolism line and selbuff is giving more ac, more mana regen but less hp than the symbol/skin combo. So, by the end, you got to chose, if you are a paladin/cleric if you want more ac and mana reg or more hp.
    I think that mages may prefer their mana regen selfbuff over skin, because they don't stack and mage's is more regen (really minor tbh) but by the end they just prefer the more hp that results on using skin.
    I agree on Tucoh post about buffstacking... that's what makes this game special and complex to min-max.
    Fanra and Corwyhn Lionheart like this.
  12. smash Augur

    Advice, go get all the proper information instead of second guessing things, and that is worthless
  13. Funky Augur

    you dont always have a cleric in your group (sometimes just a druid or shaman healer), given most servers have mercs and so you can drop someone from your group to pop a merc for cleric buffs, but that's not always the case.... so paladin's can fill in their own version of cleric buffs.
    Yinla likes this.
  14. RPoo Augur

    Shameless thread hijacking.

    What I truly would like to see happen in the future in regards to buffing is enchanters with a unity buff for group haste, voice, legion of skrizix, legion of milyex and auspice!
  15. Kaenneth Augur

    I'm a computer programmer, I fully understand how buffs work, and can figure out optimum combinations; the question that should be asked tho, is "Is it Fun"

    Figuring this stuff out for the mythological new player is too hard, and it would be nice if it was simpler.

    Don't see it changing in any case, too much dev work.
  16. Corwyhn Lionheart Augur

    The only time the the others don't pick skin and symbol is when they can't get buff refreshes and go with the longer duration assurance.

    Would be nice to see the different class buffs evened out in duration of buffs but maybe it is supposed to be a tradeoff.
    Fanra likes this.
  17. Corwyhn Lionheart Augur

    Don't get discouraged with some of the responses. There will always be grumpy old men shaking their canes and telling you to get off their lawn.

    Appreciate you taking the interest in posting and starting a discussion.
    Dzarn likes this.
  18. bortage Augur

    What I truly want from buffs is for Voice of Thule to last 2 hours, just for convenience reasons

    Also long illusions for everyone so I can be an aviak for 30 hours, as aviak illusion is the most effective buff for increasing your abs and feather density
    Vumad likes this.
  19. Zamiam Augur

    I agree , illusions that would last longer would be nice not for 30 hours that should stay an ench, bard (rogue?) ability but at least last for 10 hours like the mount and familiar buffs .. pls would be nice.. even if it was like say a cost of 100 aa's per tier for an extra 1 hour up to max 10hours
  20. Gundolin Augur

    Depends for me as a cleric. But in a general raid situation I'd rather have the higher mana regen of self buff plus assurance than Symbol and Skin. Depends on a lot of factors, on if the added mana regen is better or the added HP/AC.

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