What do you prefer: Grinding or the new Meta of Completion?

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Xerzist, Jul 11, 2020.

  1. Cicelee Augur

    Never said I enjoyed the CC Spider Harness quest.

    I love Forum Quest. It is like talking to my wife when she asks me if I want steak or lobster tonight, and I answer steak and she responds "WHY DO YOU HATE SEAFOOD SO MUCH???"
  2. yepmetoo Abazzagorath

    Grinding is not removed. People are just being obstinate and stupid, for one, and continue to argue their strawman argument.

    All 6 large boost achievements would take you from about 114.7 to max 115.99 if you did them last. You get the biggest % boost at lower levels, because the exp needed per level goes up so much. Buy even if you claimed them all at the lowest levels (somehow magically getting champion without ever getting partisan/merc exp), the exp you would gain from 110.99 from those 6 achievements would take you to about 113.1 or so, leaving you with still having to grind 2.9 levels (which are also MUCH slower than the prior 2.1 levels you gained as they require way more exp) to get back to max into max level that you started from.

    The smartest thing anyone would do is never claim a single collection until at least level 114, since they give 2% no matter your level.

    For people that didn't do a ton of collections, you're going to gain faster exp going back an expansion like TDS and gain all your collects too.

    So in terms of TOTAL experience needed from the level increase, you're talking maybe 25% of the actual exp points gained can come from those 6 achievements (and while 5 of them come from 4 total missions, the other requires ALL merc/partisan to be grinded out).

    So yeah, if you're just going to be obstinate and refuse to do content, and you're just grinding mobs, you are going to take 30% longer or whatever than if they had taken that amount of exp and calculated how many mobs you typically kill to gain those achievements then boosted exp across all mobs in TOV (would still make no difference to someone whining about grinding in sathir or whatever).

    So this entire line of complaint is simply stupid.

    If you come much later on, and somehow can't get any friends to help you with the achievements, when the missions are even easier, (because all those true solo players with no friends and no guild starting for scratch are who they should spend development research on, right?), I guess its a good thing you'll likely have all the gear and options from future expansions, all the collects you never did for easy, exp etc, right?
    I_Love_My_Bandwidth likes this.
  3. WorriedinNorrath Elder

    The new system managed to drive me away after playing since 2001. I check back on the forums every once in awhile to see if there is any word on next expansion.
  4. Corwyhn Lionheart Guild Leader, Lions of the Heart

    Nope. The amount of time it takes to grind exp increased dramatically with ToV. It shouldn't have. Why you feel the need to talk down to those who just want a similar experience to what they have had over the years is beyond me. No one is saying remove any of the other things you mention. They are just asking for the same sort of grinding exp experience they have had in upteen past expansions.

    Why do you feel the need to argue against this?

    If you are happy with the other methods its no skin of your nose if some folks want the same grind experience they are used to.

    So why?

    Why trash folks who are just asking for the grind to go back the way it was? How does this hurt you? You argue against it like it hurts you in some manner. Seems to me it could go back to the way it was and you would be completely unaffected.

    Will it ruin the game for you if it goes back to the way it was but they keep the progression exp?

    Does it ruin the game for you if folks have a different path to level then the one you prefer? A path that up till this expansion has been fine?

    I am just trying to understand why some of you are fighting so hard against this.
  5. yepmetoo Abazzagorath

    Because you have been shown the numbers, the reality, and all you do is leave that thread and wait until the next one to pop up and repeat the exact same garbage.

    The exp required to level up went up a lot in ToV. And what do you post?

    You post that people are "forced" to do progression. No, they are not.

    You post that grinding mobs only is no longer a path to leveling. Yes, it is.

    You post that its a dichotomous choice. No, it is not.

    You post that it is so much harder for people to do the missions later on. No, it is not.

    If people want to do the missions, they can get together and do the missions. The only thing that happens as time goes on and fewer people do them is that people that aren't whiners and play half competently stop dragging the lazy and terrible (and yes, the people the come along late due to not playing and don't know anyone) players through as welfare.

    I have gone into general on YOUR server plenty of times and asked for random people to come join my ROI group to fill slots on missions. To get zero or maybe 1 or 2 tells at best. End up having to use rogue mercs sometimes instead. There isn't some massive backlog of people unable to get groups or do those missions. And guess what? You come along 8 months late in the middle of summer, log in, ask, "anyone doing velks mission?" then log off 5 minutes later because "no one is helping you" because life doesn't revolve around you, then I have ZERO sympathy.

    If you made a true and reasonable argument I wouldn't care. But you prop up the same strawman position every freaking thread like this, try and parse out your words to try and sound "reasonable", then *act* offended when called on your BS. Personally, I'm tired of it. You are just as bad as some of the people you have gotten into it with that are on the other extreme end of these arguments.

    You aren't a freaking hero for the common man, for the nearly non-existent "new or returning player with no friends that finds themselves at level 111 in ToV unable to "get" groups (since they won't try and make their own)". You are are enabler that is trying to lead this game down a primrose path to irrelevance.

    Guess what? ROF partisans gave huge chunks of exp too. This isn't new.

    This is a level increase only 2 expansions after the last level increase, where the prior expansion TBL saw a huge increase in mob dps and hitpoints. So yeah, you can't go hit some 4 year old expansion and swarm mass kills and level up faster than people actually grouping in the current expansion working through current content. AND THAT IS BY DESIGN.

    Go and post whatever recycled wanna be debate point you want. I won't be replying to you on this, because I know exactly where it will go, just like every other thread on this topic you have inserted yourself on, and I'll let someone else spit into the wind while you post 30 times in reply turning a 3 page thread into a 20 page thread with absolutely zero increase in substantive posting.
    Cadira likes this.
  6. Cicelee Augur

    Imagine being a game developer. You spend 40-70 hours a week for 6-10 months creating these zones and dungeons and monsters and quests and missions and raids. You are proud of your work, and you want to share your work with the player base. However in the past you notice that quite a few want to just sit in one corner of a zone and pull trash mobs ad nauseum to get five levels and five thousand AA. And they will do this for the entire year, never partaking in any of the hard work you put into the game save for that one corner zone.

    So you decide to incentivize players. You can still sit in your corner of the zone, no one is taking that away from you. But to those who explore and experience all the hard work I put into the game, I am going to give you a bonus. Probably too large of a bonus, but i really want to make sure you experience all of this content. So for those players who actually play all the expansion, and not one cornee of one zone, they are rewarded.

    And those who want their one corner can still do so. No one is taking that away. Just don't be jealous of those who are indulging the developers and their hard work by playing the expansion for its entirety...
  7. yepmetoo Abazzagorath

    Bingo. And let's not forget that they also made this the easiest expansion in like 5 years to make it even easier on people to do things.

    I'm a grinder. Every prior level increase I have been able to go solo my way to max level in 2.5 to 10 hours depending on the particular increase.

    I enjoy grinding. Its mindless, relaxing. I have spend thousands of hours clearing the same zones over and over swarming. PLing alt after alt after alt.

    This is the first expansion I went through and did all progression while current since Underfoot. The first Hunter completion I have done in era. It incentivized me to do it, and I did it. And I didn't think to come here and whine about it.

    They make the game, we play the game. We give them our input and they may decide to rethink some things, because we pay to play their game.

    I'm getting a little tired of the entitled whining over every single development decision.
  8. Pawtato Augur

    Please spare us the developer sob story, they're not the end users. If, you make something and it doesn't get used or is broadly rejected, then adding incentives isn't going to solve the issue. All you're going to do is frustrate your end-user base because it's something they didn't want to do anyways.

    It doesn't matter if both path exists. If one is faster than the other the user base is going to use that method, because they'll feel left behind and that they wasted time. This is why people say they feel forced. It's a cycle as a old gaming, it's how the term meta (most effective tactics available) originated.

    TLDR: Don't double down on designs your user-base rejects, just because it hurts your ego.
  9. narcissistic_person New Member

    This is pretty much the equivalent of the time no one was coming to my art gallery to see my paintings, so, I created a labyrinth with many dangers and hung my paintings throughout it. I drugged the townspeople and when they awoke they found themselves at the start of my labyrinth. Those that were able to escape the labyrinth were able to see all of my paintings.
  10. Tucoh Augur

    Too late, bud. You're the reason!!!!
  11. Skuz I am become Wrath, the Destroyer of Worlds.

    I have zero issue with making the progression system the most rewarding - but annihilating all other options viability alongside that - that's some pretty heavy-duty arm-twisting to "encourage" players to use it, and a bunch of players also seem to think its okay to say "oh that old play-style you like, well you don't like it any more because I said so".

    If I quit the game just before ToV opens on Phinny & came back in a couple years I would be looking at a very up-hill climb, an uphill climb unlike any prior one after a hiatus, if I don't get a carry though content its going to be a much slower process to catch up to to the rest of the server than it has ever been previously due to this XP model change in ToV (and onwards) it's that which the devs don't appear to care about & evidently a number of posters in this thread don't either.
  12. Corwyhn Lionheart Guild Leader, Lions of the Heart

    Umm I inserted myself into? I think as a member of the forum we ALL insert ourselves into discussions. Not sure what the insert comment means.

    Your numbers been zero nothing nada. Please show me where I have said you can't get exp off of collections, progression or playing overseer. You keep acting like I am refusing to believe any of that.


    I am simply asking for the grind experience to return to what I have been used to getting for many years.

    You are the one who keeps bringing up stuff that has nothing to do with point I am making. I ask for a return to grind experience as it was and talk about exp from all sorts of things that ARE NOT grind experience.

    You stubbornly keep trying to point out things to me I already know and acknowledge as if somehow it should matter.

    I would like to progress in levels primarily via a reasonable rate of grind experience. I don't try to force you to do that I don't try to take away the methods to get exp that you seem to enjoy more. I don't try to take anything away from you but you keep trying to tell me I have to like these other methods to get exp.

    Is it not enough for you that I don't want you to lose all the ways you like getting exp... collections, progression, overseer? I don't ask to take any of that away from you. I just want a reasonable return for my buck when I grind exp to level. And I am not asking for more then in past expansions I am just asking for the same rate as recent expansions. To ague against this just makes no sense at all. Or are you telling me I can only have fun in ways you approve? I mean I dont get it.

    When it comes down to it you make zero arguments about how what I want would hurt the game you just say the same thing over and over about ALTERNATE ways to get exp.

    You have no idea what you are talking about. I have always exp'd in the CURRENT expansion. I don't have time to exp one place and get my drops in another place. I need to be working on both at the same time.

    ALL of my posts have been about making the grind exp IN TOV relevant again. NOT ONCE have I asked for exp in older expansions be a path to leveling.

    So for 20 years grinding exp was fine but this year it makes Everquest irrelevant? You keep spouting off stuff but never back it up with the exception of getting exp from collectors, progression and overseer the funny part being I have never argues against those being sources just not sources I want to get exp from. And again I am not asking for bonus grind experience just the same one we have had in recent years.

    It's like you are mad that I don't want to enjoy the game the same way as you. It is actually okay for us to like different things about the game. That doesn't make your way of enjoying it wrong and it doesn't make my way of enjoying it wrong.

    You seem to be more of a min maxer and its all about the numbers for you. x percent from overseer, x percent from collections. Where as I actually enjoy grinding exp... working through mobs and increasing my characters power.

    Now if you loved overseer and collections and next expansion they nerfed them both into meaninless pursuits you might get upset. And those are relativley new methods (even collections to the grind exp method.

    And you know what? If they reversed things put all the exp into grinding and took it all away from other sources (progression, collections, Overseer) I would be here still arguing that you should still be able to get exp using those other methods. I would argue for them to add back the ways you like to exp. Even if I have no intention of getting my primary exp that way I still believe the rest of you that enjoy it should be able to continue doing it. That is where you and I are different.

    Do some homework. When they nerfed overseer I was there arguing that folks should get refunds if they spent a lot of daybreak cash on it. I had no interest in overseer but I was still able to see it meant something to others and that they were getting short changed.
    Missiny and Skuz like this.
  13. Corwyhn Lionheart Guild Leader, Lions of the Heart

    I think maybe I get the wide gap there seems to be on the two sides of this.

    Some view leveling as something they get done as fast as possible in the most efficient way possible using whatever tools are at hand so they can get to the serious business of raiding

    Others like be just try to enjoy the process of leveling and we enjoy doing that by killing mobs. The thing is you get used to a certain amount of positive feedback via how much your exp percentage moves up. That got take away.

    Now those who just see leveling as an ends to a means so they can get back to raiding won't get that side of things. You level get it done then get back to raiding.

    Now the important thing here is its all good and no one method or reason for leveling is better then the other. But it means different things to different people.

    For some of us leveling is where we have our fun not what we do after we have leveled. And again nothing wrong for those that like to get leveling out of the way to raid.
    Skuz likes this.
  14. Xerzist Augur

    Brother relax, its just a discussion.
    Skuz likes this.
  15. Elysania Journeyman

    I would say a bit of both. I enjoy the progression part of leveling because it gives you a chance to go through all of the content for the expansion but it is not required for ppl to do to get to 115 its just one of many ways to do it. one part of the game I do enjoy and hope they keep doing in further expansions is evolving gear. having the 4 pieces from tbl and earring from tov. I would be interested to see more evolving gear keeping people out and grinding for a reason especially those with max aas, but also having progression in there as a means of exp. Was having a discussion today with a friend about doing a 3.0 evolving weapon as a lot of epics do need some updating to be relevant and it would be a fun thing to see a new epic quest implemented into the game. same as with the earring now requiring different stages of the current expansion to be done to fully unlock the next form.
  16. Biko New Member

    Grinding should always be an option for standard level progression. I think it's great for there to be an alternative road to take and am not even opposed to it being slightly more rewarding. But the current grind is inefficient in a way that breaks with the majority of the games history. Allow players to have a relatively competitive choice as to which road they prefer to take.
    Skuz and Barton like this.
  17. Barton The Mischievous

    I prefer having multiple "viable" paths to level.
    Skuz and BadPallyGuildLeader like this.
  18. Xerzist Augur

    And I'd like to add, as part of the discussion, you are right they make the game and we play it.

    You said grinding wasn't removed.. and that it is a strawman argument... yeah, so you get maybe 3% experience for 2 hours of trashing mobs at 113 in the majority of ToV zones... some will say oh you can go to tofs or velks... yes lets have new/returning players go to the high tier zones. Let me know how that works out :p

    Do the math on that.

    But as customers who pay, we are of course entitled to our thoughts. I really don't want to be told how to think, but I do appreciate your opinion and see where you are coming from. Simple thing is not all folks have oodles of time, they may have kids, work, heavy schedules. I think some of you forget how it was walking into this xpac at 110 with prior expansion gear OR WORSE. Solo/Molo was impossible at the time for me when I came back after a hiatus even as a shadowknight. I was extremely frustrated, and had to go back to a prior expansion to just breathe. But ALL the stuff I needed (gear, progression, better exp) was in the new expansion. Get it? You are in a certain way forced to join in on content that is nigh impossible to do without friends, other players, or a guild willing to stop what they are doing for you. It is a fight for the "little dudes" ...

    So yeah, I think its ruthless to ignore new players and chastise them because they weren't here when the expansion released. Most players want to charge 300-500k for completions of these quests to maintain their 6 box teams. It's not a super friendly environment - I don't care which isle you stand on in the argument.

    Now that I am 115 and have raid gear and higher AA's, yeah, its much easier. But lets be real... it took me 5-6 months to get close and it was with a lot of help.
    Skuz and winspearean like this.
  19. Koryu Professional Roadkill

    But that's exactly what happened with the new tradeskill cap and the Artisan's Prize. Only a very select few actually wanted to learn all of those recipes (even literally all possible recipes for the sake of Obsessive Completion Disorder), the rest have done it only for the incentivized augment, doing the absolute minimum number of recipes learned before moving on. It is frustrating and awful, but people are still forcing themselves through it because a good incentive works.
  20. Pawtato Augur

    What's your point that you're trying to make? Adding incentives increases user engagement? If, that's your point that's not how you design user experiences. Just trying to hit some targeted user engagement number doesn't lead to quality game design, it's just going to frustrate users and drive them away.
    Skuz likes this.