What changes on Mangler? (Focus Effects)

Discussion in 'Time Locked Progression Servers' started by Chanaluss, Feb 24, 2019.

  1. Chanaluss Can spell Doljonijiarnimorinar, Iqthinxa Karnkvi

    I've been examining the ruleset changes for Mangler, but admittedly I've been an SK almost exclusively for 10,000 years so im not as well versed as I should be. Just how negatively will the lack of focus effects hit casters/hybrids during the early months of Mangler? Will it just kind of be a minor inconvenience, or will it just be Shaman crying themselves to sleep over lack of extended enhancement/enhancement haste?
  2. taliefer Augur

    its pretty minor overall imo. people are freaking out over things that were about a 10% increase in damage/efficiency in most cases. and not even all focuses were present in classic.
  3. malaki Augur

    I mean it's a thing, but Complete Heal and Wizard Rains largely ignore focuses anyways so it really doesn't matter.
  4. ShivanAngel Augur

    I Mathed it out to an arpox 21% dps loss for casters.

    Heres the math

    Chanaluss likes this.
  5. Korzu111 Elder

    It’ll be less than that in classic since MP3 and SH3 aren’t on any classic focus effect items that I can remember, so the SH2 and MP2 would have a reduced effect with lvl 49 spell anyways. It’ll still be a sizable dps loss though, and will really be more prominent in Kunark.
  6. snailish Augur

    Content was never tuned up to suit the retroactively placed focus effects.

    In other words, players remain overpowered for the content. You'll be fine.
  7. malaki Augur

    On a raid if you're a wizard spamming ice comet instead of raining you're almost certainly doing it wrong.
    Vinlail, taliefer and Protagonist like this.
  8. ShivanAngel Augur

    the math reflects that, its for ED3, SH2, MP2
  9. 6rout Lorekeeper

    There were 0 focus items present in classic. They began with Luclin, unless you count Flowing Thought in Velious
  10. Doze Augur

    You don't consider the addition of MotM buffs to be tuning?!
  11. taliefer Augur

    just using the ice comet example, the base is 808 damage for 203 mana, 5 second cast.

    i logged on my wizard on coirnav who has the level 2 focuses, and it goes to 4.2 cast for 143-157(so probably 150ish on average) mana. id3 would make the average nuke ~889.

    that comes out to 3.98 mana per damage, to 5.92 mana per damage. bigger effect than i thought, but i still dont think its worth fussing about.

    for reference, ice comet USED to be 1120 damage for 400 mana with a 6.3 cast time. thats 2.8 damage per mana, with a longer cast.

    casters will still be using spells much more efficient than they were originally.

    edit: just posting this to give the actual focus effect numbers on a popular spell.
  12. taliefer Augur

    indeed. i was referencing the fact that all focus effects werent available during classic on progression servers. they were retro-added in with what seems to be very little thought on classic, kunark and velious items.

    edit: changed focus items to focus effects
    snailish likes this.
  13. snailish Augur

    MoTM is a pretty specific-use thing. Raid encounter tuning, sure... though based on these forums one would think MoTM does more to stop people solo or group farming old raids than it does to elevate the challenge significantly (beyond reducing some tactics) in era.

    The overall game tuning isn't just final raid bosses. Some players don't interact with MoTM at all.

    Focus effect era-setting is a minor change when taken into context of what the classic to Velious content was tuned for and where players remain in (over) poweredness. PoP and later content was designed with focus effects in mind so any changes made to focus in later eras could be problematic. They haven't touched later with this change, so the change is a non issue.
  14. snailish Augur

    It was a cute idea at the time.

    -put rank I and II mostly in classic and Kunark on some "shout out" items that used to be good/interesting. Put rank III mostly in Luclin, IV was the new in PoP. LoY has some good ones but they are a hassle to get for the people that would want them, and generally aren't good enough for the raid-equipped people that could easily run the events/raids.

    When they did it... getting rank 2 focus wasn't something entire servers of leveling types bothered with... population was already top-heavy in the 60+ game.

    When they did it... they had no conception of reselling old expacs as progression. If they had... they would have put the foci on a range of lesser more obscure drops rather than "shout out" things. Shining Metallic Robes is a great example... nice robe that got turned into epic item, but was for a quest already, and now has a useful focus on it. At least we have picks so SMR rain like candy on a server...

    Availability of rank 1-3 is spotty. Slot usage varies wildly (which can be fun, if enough options exist) and some drops or quested focus are seriously rare.

    If they had a do-over... probably should have just made them all AA.
  15. ShivanAngel Augur

    Because 21/38 fists at 50 is perfectly fine but 80 extra damage on a nuke is busted.
    Fizon and Doze like this.
  16. Doze Augur

    This makes me think that you never actaully fought a MotM buffed mob yourself.

    I disagree strongly!
    If you - and all the others with a similar point of view - really think it is such a minor change and a non-issue then why advocate and cheer it so much? Why not just let those of us - who knows better and find the removal of them a detriment to our fun - have our focus effects?
  17. snailish Augur

    I respect your disagreement. I doubt you and I will agree on this point.

    I see focus effect era setting for progression as a (small) part of tuning the world to be as-intended challenging in era. We have lots of forum posts about how trivial content is on progression, whether talking group or raid game. While MoTM addresses that to some... it also had to do with other factors that were causing raid targets to die in a very fast trivial manner. If only a handful of guilds were beating raids in era then maybe the argument that MoTM is overtuned would resonate. When should MoTM decay and/or be lifted... a different debate with more merit likely --(gets into the balance of people 1-group farming the raid vs. no one still bothering to actually raid it. Probably worthy of its own thread).

    Some would find it fun to one-shot every NPC and get to level 50 in classic in two hours of play. They could tune it that way. Nostalgia as a sell suggests some level of danger/challenge like it used to be is needed --especially when there are many newer games that offer the fast reward for little effort. I advocate for this because I think EQ lasts longer as a viable game by getting the nostalgia right for classic to at least Velious. Even if it means getting that core audience to repeatedly pay to play the same thing over and over.

    EQ doesn't always get it right. A lot of tedium/timesink vs. challenge. Sometimes the challenge is no where near appropriate for the reward (so many quests like this).

    Focus effects were added @ PoP era. Why? Partly as gimmick/sell for the rank IV in that new content. Whole bunch of tradeskilling is featuring it, class armors have "special" focus --it was a long-gone devs little special idea. Eventually they templatized it to slots with goofy long names... on live they are to the point where they should probably just abandon the idea altogether (once an effect only lives in one slot of gear... why bother. Just make it innate or don't design with it in mind).

    Partly as one of the earliest bones (something they really hesitated in handing out over time) to the behind the curve levelers (otherwise why bother with rank 1 and 2 and not just make rank 3 good for 1-60). You can look up items circa PoP and see posts under many of the rank II focus of people going "I was wearing this still anyway, now it isn't so bad". But back then... only a handful of guilds were doing in era raiding (elemental Planes) and lots of players were 60+ in older gear. That isn't what most 60+ are doing in Luclin era on modern progression servers as the raiding playerbase is very well geared compared to the average player back in the day.

    So what does it do removing them from classic to velious?
    1. Tunes back towards challenging (a bit) player power
    2. makes the in-era itemization options more valid... because focus aren't outbalancing that.

    So more powerful as an idea than actual hurt to anyone being able to kill in Lower Guk or raid Naggy.


    If nostaligia is the sell that pays the bills, and classic to velious being more challenging to play = more satisfied players paying to play longer, then it is worth removing focus effects in those eras. Even if it upsets some people. If it really upsets you... only play on servers post-Luclin.
  18. Doze Augur

    Suspend your condescending arrogance please. That is akin to saying "Why don't you go play on live servers?".
  19. snailish Augur

    Texts and posts are easily misread.

    No arrogance intended.

    Focus effect removal for classic to velious content is not a be and end all, hill to die on for many people. Not much in a game should be. If it is for you, a Luclin+ start may be a better choice.

    We all have funny quirks about gameplay. I can't stand the in game popups and not choosing my starter city --so I won't do F2P even though there have been literally months where what I was doing in game would be 100% compatible with that. So I pay a monthly sub to not be annoyed by that. Probably not a logical stance to others.
  20. PwnQuest Augur

    Doze, we won't see eye to eye on this until after Mangler launches and you're without focus, and see how easy TLPs still are. And I am confident you will see this, even if you never admit it.
    snailish likes this.