What changes after PoP to make chanters not as overpowered?

Discussion in 'Time Locked Progression Servers' started by fang99, May 17, 2019.

  1. fang99 New Member

    Having never really played past planes of power, I'm curious exactly how chanters get reduced in power. Are mobs mostly uncharmable? Too resistant? Do less damage? Unstunnable? What changes to make enchanters go from god mode to meh in later expansions? How are they are levels 70, 80, 90+ etc?
  2. Bobbybick Augur

    The highest level zones (where most of the better gear from) don't have charmable mobs. So in any of those zones you are providing buffs (can be done by a box easily), CC (unnecessary for stronger groups), and middling damage.

    There are almost always SOME zones in each expansion where charm still is great, but it's nothing like classic->PoP.
  3. fang99 New Member

    Uncharmable due to level or being flagged uncharmed? Does the chanter stun still land?
  4. phattoni Augur

    charmed mobs in god(the expac before the nerf) hit in the 700+ range, parsed out to 1000+ or so dps.

    charmed mobs in oow+ hit for a fraction of what they should 200-300(for oow).

    stuns and stuff still land, except maybe the high end zones, like rss for oow, not sure stun works there because of mob level.
  5. Aziuno Augur

    I don't enchanter..... But if I remember correctly...

    The Stuns after 60 share the same cooldown, and the lower level ones don't effect the higher lvl mobs.

    I think the highest level mob the old world ones stun is 55, which is why you see PoI as last AoE, also some mobs are immune to stun (but still get stun threat so pallys can still tank)
  6. fang99 New Member

    So a charmed pet's dmg gets nerfed oow+? Like 1/4 its normal damage? Seems like it'd be pointless to charm anything anymore.
  7. Conq Augur

    Enchanters still live in god mode in current EQ.
    snailish likes this.
  8. snailish Augur

    OoW was a big change at the time. Charmed pets reduced in power, OoW full of nasty mobs that ate unsuspecting PuGs. If you weren't 65 @ the start of OoW your CC was semi effective (I recall not being able to mez half the mobs in the popular leveling zones because I was 2 levels too low to land it).Combine this with the game getting more bursty/tank & spank and the class lagged in DPS and group utility as CC was not needed the same.

    Then they started farming out pulling and CC tools.

    And buffs last so long...

    So enchanter became a box class / see you at the start of the raid / I used to play that for many people.

    Meanwhile, (from what I hear) somewhere 70+ enchanter got a whole pile of tools back --to the point where there are threads from a few years back upset about how godmode chanters were solo tanking stuff. Now, I think some of that has been toned down --but by all accounts live servers remain in a second golden age of being an enchanter.

    On progression we get a funny view of it... because charming is easier than it was (magic resist check changes years ago and the sum of so many other changes) + more knowledgeable playerbase that isn't afraid to play the class hard & the abundant supply of good gear = more enchanters in early eras than ever happened back in the day. Roll your chanter to bankroll your main is many players approach on progression.
  9. MaxTheLion Augur

    They are strong for different reasons beyond what people always cry about on these forums. I'd make a generous estimate to say ~75% of the current TLP players have never played any of the recent five expansions. All they do is reroll with each new TLP and then complain.
    Chaosflux likes this.
  10. Chaosflux Augur

    I've got a chanter in my team on ragefire, suboptimal in DODH/POR, though I still enjoy having it along for blur and dominant CC/mana flare and the minimal dps it does, and i know around 75/80 they hit a good period again so theres no reason to replace if I am playing the long game.

    And charm is not even a blip on the radar as far as chanter power goes later on. Theres so many other things that are far more powerful and viable.
    snailish likes this.
  11. Midnitewolf Elder

    I know I am resurrecting a 5 month old thread but this is exactly the information I was looking for for the last few weeks and wanted to comment.

    This is exactly what I am experiencing on my 66 Chanter on the Selo server. Right now I feel pretty useless because none of my CC spells work on anything higher than level 64 mobs and because I am leveling, most of the groups I am invited to are usually fighting level 65+. Also it seems 99% of everything is immune to stun so my CC is root which isn't exclusive to Chanters by far.

    Charm is also useless for the same reason, I can Charm a max of level 64 but if your not fighting anything level 64 and below, there are no mobs to charm and that doesn't even account for how dangerous it is to charm when you consider how hard mobs hit at this level range. You have about 5-8 seconds to react to a charm break before your dead on the floor.

    Then as far as DPS is concerned, you really can't do this either because Enchanter spells seem to all have a massive aggro component to them making it very easy to pull the aggro off even the best tank. I was in PAW last night and even with SCS and an item that reduced the aggro of my Tash by 40%, I couldn't even cast my DoT on a MoB after applying Tash and Slow without pulling aggro from the tank. My sole source of damage was my animation hitting for a piddling 40-50 damage per hit and only then because I invested like 9 AA into the the skill that allows me to command them to attack.

    So at 66 I am finding my Chanter's role reduced to Buffing VoQ, Haste, Tashing and Slowing with little to no damage. I have taken to equipping a 1hb weapon with a configuration Proc (625 dmg DD) and meleeing in order to contribute to my groups.

    Then past 65 there is the availability of spells to consider since all 66+ spells require you to luck out on rune drops or spend tens of thousands of plat to buy them in the bazaar and the level 69 and 70 spells seem to be gated behind raids and no drop runes that you can't even buy. When your already behind the curve operating with the vast majority of your arsenal of spell useless due to them not being able to effect mobs of the level your fighting, the inability to easily get the spells you need to be effective again is a critical issue.

    Overall it is very, disappointing and frustrating coming from a class that was very fun and active all the way to level 55 or so and I am not even talking about the Charm aspect when I say fun and active. Charm and the raw DPS it used to bring to a group was icing on the cake but was never necessary for the class to be fun. However, to have all the CC capabilities reduced to uselessness at the same time you lose the ability to charm anything relevant to the content and contribute that way to a group makes it a very bad time to be a chanter. I think once I hit 70 and acquire all the spells I need to be effective in the current content it will smooth out and the Chanter will be fun to play again but right now it is a little hard to motivate myself to log in my Chanter when faced with the prospect of not having any fun at all while playing it.
  12. MaxTheLion Augur

    While I'm not happy you're disappointed, it is refreshing to see somebody convey their feelings about the reality of what happens to the class once past the "golden early days" where charm shines. A few dedicated players will continue to main the class in future expansions but as Bobby mentioned, most Enchanters become boxes.
    Aneuren likes this.
  13. Midnitewolf Elder

    Well didn't come into playing an Enchanter with any expectations as I had no prior experience with them previously so this is the first time I am feeling the pain. However, I honestly think they will get better but I think what happened is that the developers didn't think ahead beyond the current expansion when it came to Enchanters. Basically they never contemplated the situation I am in now with my Chanter, i.e. a situation where Chanters were LEVELING against content higher level then themselves. Then when the expansions went in and suddenly this was a thing, Chanters were suddenly in a bad way.

    Again the biggest issue I am experiencing is my core abilities not being effective in the current content. I am talking about my CC abilities. Charm, while amazing in its own right, isn't really the problem. I mean even if you cut the DPS of a charmed pet in half or more, it would still have very solid DPS, especially in a group setting. Solo is a different story but with a working tool set, there are ways around that issue and looking to the future, I think Chanters get a working tool set again. Don't get me wrong, I think it was a horrible decision to so dramatically cut one of the core aspects of Chanter gameplay, charming, but it is the fact that I can't function in the CC aspect of the class that cripples the Enchanter at least at my current level, in the current expansion on Selo's.

    One thing I can say now is that I completely understand the whine I have seen on the forums about Chanters during the OOW era. When I rolled a Chanter I had suspected it was just the typical overblown reactions you see all the time and that things weren't really nearly as bad as the vocal minority made it out to be. However, I was wrong. It is that bad. I can't imagine how I would have felt back in the day if I had been running a Chanter as a main and came across this scenario without having the future perspective on the direction of the class that I have now. I honestly think I would have rage-quit EQ. The Enchanter just dramatically goes from amazing and fun to dull, drab and feeling nearly useless in the space of just a few levels and it isn't a subtle change at all.
  14. Aneuren Augur

    I was thinking this too. Back on Prexus, I mained an Enchanter until Gates of Discord. For the first weekish, you could charm all the way up to the Ikkinz group trials. The nerf bat came extremely quickly, and I gave up on the Enchanter even more quickly. I have played a Warrior ever since.

    I don't know how Enchanters are on live, I have heard good things and that makes a small part of me happy. But GoD really killed the class for me back then.
    MaxTheLion likes this.
  15. MaxTheLion Augur

    The biggest issue is that a good amount of people who play an Enchanter on TLPs never experience the nosedive the class takes after their utility and charm power start to fade. Those of us who did main the class through many expansions felt it first hand and tried to warn others that the feelings of disappointment and hopelessness would start at level 1 if all the "ermahgerd, charm so OP" crowd got their nerfs implemented.

    I no longer main an Enchanter for all the reasons Bobby mentioned: buffs (can be done by a box), CC (unnecessary for stronger groups), and mediocre damage.

    Based on posts in previous years, the class used to be (is?) strong in the more recent-ish expansions because they could self rune to all hell and tank mobs. I have not kept up with the changes enough to know what was (will be, RIP EQ with current nerf avalanche Devs are on) changed and how they currently perform.
  16. Spayce Augur

    A lot of incorrect "facts" in this post from a guy who is just upset his class is no longer complete god mode.

    First of all, the 69/70 spells are not gated behind raid mobs. Just last night I got 2 greater and 2 glowing runes in MPG off Taskfiend Chaikap (sp?).

    Secondly, the 68 charm spell allows you to charm up to level 67 mobs, and that rune is for sale in the bazaar right now on Coirnav for ~30k plat.

    Third, all your charms that worked in PoFire still work in PoFire, and you can easily use that zone to level to 68 to use the new charm. Chanters soloed PoFire endlessly pre-OoW, and nothing is stopping that from happening now.

    So yeah...sorry you are no longer more powerful than an entire group of non-Chanters. It must really make the game hard...
  17. Aneuren Augur

    Just remember this. All through Classic, through Luclin, and through PoP, Verant and then Sony purposefully put Enchanters on that path. A good number of their spells and aa abilities revolved around harnessing the full power of charm. The Eldritch and Arcane Runes, to allow them to survive charm breaks. The Word of Morell line, to give them that ae stun + short duration mez, to help them recharm their pet. The Domination aa line, to strengthen their charm. And, of course, expansions filled with new charm spells to allow them to charm higher level mobs.

    Indeed, the pre-launch Enchanter class had no animation - instead, it had a more powerful version of charm.

    So yes, you'll see many players arguing against charm nerfs because they don't want their extremely powerful ability nerfed. But I ask you too, to remember that there are Enchanters out there that grew up in this class and love how it was originally intended to be played. Truly, it was the escalating strength of mobs that ultimately unbalanced charm, combined first with zone graveyards and then with the lack of risk when corpse runs were altogether removed.

    Almost 14 years later, it still makes me sad when I think of how much fun I used to have with my first Enchanter, and how quickly that fun was taken away.
  18. HoodenShuklak Augur

    I played an enc for fun on agnarr, and I played one more casually on Selo.

    The big thing is mainly just charm is harder to find mobs for and also the risk reward gets to the point where you just take any dps and call it good. Clarity is nice, but you can buy KEI in a bottle for 10plat or 20 depending.

    Player power just goes up so fast after POP and, quite opposite, player power is never as bad as it will be when a tlp is new. So it's a perfect scenario for enc.

    As far as raids, they need to do a token mez or charm, but they also need to tash every single mob forever still. I'm not sure if that changes, but those 3 things there assure that enc is permanently in demand for raids.

    It's probably not at all a bad class to main but its busy. If you dont tash you'll be considered a poor player. If you cannot control your charms, everyone will know it. But none of this is glorious so you've got to be ok with that sort of setup.

    I'm sure there are some meta games that you could enjoy on raids. Like having mobs tashed before getting to the tank, proactively buffing, actually using weakness, etc etc. Its as busy or lazy as you want it to be.
  19. Midnitewolf Elder

    Ok, first I am level 66 and just getting into the level 66-70 spell acquisition stage and the information I read about the runes seemed to indicate they were acquired during raid level events. Since I have progressed only this far, I wouldn't no more then the apparently erroneous information I found so thanks for the information. It is really nice to know it might not be as hard to acquire those runes as I originally thought.

    Second, I am not level 68 and my current charm spell only allows me to charm up to level 64 so at level 66, fighting level 65-70 level mobs, I can't charm a thing. It is nice to know I can charm up to level 67 mobs once I reach level 68 but that doesn't invalidate my point that not being able to charm mobs my level and even above if I was crazy enough to risk it, has never been an issue until I hit somewhere around level 55-56 or so. It is a dramatic and jolting change that takes you by surprise when charming has been part of your core play style through 55+ levels and multiple expansions.

    Third, I barely talk about soloing at all, nor did really go to deeply into the charm mechanic other than to say charm would still be powerful, even if the charms DPS was cut to 50% or less of the max an uncharmed MoB could do yet you seem almost singly focused on charming. To clarify again, I am referring to my group role of providing CC through the use of mez and stun mechanics that quite honestly are the mechanics Chanters are known for right behind providing crack and haste. On the other hand, despite the DPS a charmed MoB brings to a group, I have on several occasions been asked NOT to charm by groups I have been part of. I would go so far as to say, Charm isn't on most people's radar as the reason to want to include a Chanter in their group and it is surprising how many don't have a clue as to the amount of DPS a charmed MoB brings to the group.

    So to clarify yet again, I am talking about the mez and stun mechanics as being the real issue I am experiencing and the fact that the current spell line up, post around 55-56 doesn't scale well with the current content on Selo. I am not leveling in areas where MoBs are lower level than me so a mez that doesn't work on MoBs 2 or 3 levels above me doesn't allow me to do my job and provide reliable CC. Same with having stuns for CC when 90% of mobs seem to be stun immune or resistant. The entire core of being a Chanter, its CC mechanics, are inadequate during these levels with the current Selo content. It is quite jarring to suddenly find everything that was core or central about your class suddenly become irrelevant.

    As to what roles are left. Well let me clarify that as well again. I provide mana regen, providing everyone hasn't already secured to 2 hour long buff from some other source prior to us getting the group together. Often this means, I am not providing mana regen. I also provide haste which at least there is a need for in the group so yay me. I can slow the mob which is pretty vital so there is that. I can Tash but its usefulness is primarily dependent on how many caster there are in your party. I can attempt to DD but my DD spells are very low damage output and have aggro equivalent to what seems DDs doing 2-3 times the damage cast by Wiz and Mage toons. I have a single DoT I can usually sneak in that does about 320 damage every tick and I can send in my pet which can hit for about 30-50 damage if it actually hits the higher level mob it is attacking and that is my sole damage output.

    Based on that, why would you want a Chanter in the group? How about why would you even play a Chanter other than to farm lower level content or maybe solo?

    Finally, I will leave it with this. The point I was making is I now understand why there was/is so much crying about Chanters. They get beat the hell and back during this period and lose most of what made them a great and fun class to play at least during the current content on Selo. I think that will change when I hit level 70 to a degree and also when the level cap increases in future expansions but I think anyone who rolls a chanter at any point prior to this point on Selo, around the DoDH expansion, that their future is kind of bleak and the Chanter will hit a major rough patch during OOW/DODH era, maybe even a bit sooner.
  20. Aegir Augur

    Lv 70 Era is the low-period for Charmed DPS. Then it starts scaling back up.

    I basically did 90% of all Progression, Missions, quests from GoD up till VoA ( where Phinny is now) and what not, duoing as a monk with an Enchanter friend.

    They are still extremely powerful in lv 70 Era, Charm pet DPS is just drastically reduced.

    Runes, Stuns, CC. Mobs that can be stunned will barely be doing any dmg at all - and anything they do, the runes will eat.

    When you get to Seeds of Destruction - Enchanters are fully recovered... Healer Mercs, makes Charming a trivial task and the charmed pets are very good Tanks (PITA to manually heal though, use mercs) and awesome DPS.

    There are zones where Charming is limited, but it's more an exception than the general ruleset.

    TL:DR. Enchanters are OP, they are a bit more down to earth in lv 70 Era.

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