If you were a shaman in a dps role you would let another shaman handle malo and slow so it really wouldn't be an issue. Nobody was saying to remove shaman from melee groups or that you should dps if you're the only shaman on a raid. It's simply a comment on shaman dps given an ideal situation compared to actual dps classes. Plus compared to a necro you actually have a much faster ramp up time. It takes them like 20 dots to do what you're doing with just 7. Right now, you have a lot of advantages over necros and do similar to possibly more dps. And given that you require less dots to do it you can sustain a larger number of shaman compared necros if the buff limit is concern.
if you're not going to compare them in a realistic scenario, then it's a worthless conversation. a shaman is never going to not have to fill a shaman's role when it comes to splash/slow/etc, it doesn't matter what kind of group they're in or how many shamans in raid you have. as was said earlier in this thread, those things are a given.... so talking about it like you won't have to do it is a waste of time. i'll admit to not being an expert on necro ramp-up time, but I do know that on burns they typically begin before the rest of the raid to account for that. so back to theory vs reality.... Jetslam keeps saying 250k is easily doable... kizant keeps commenting for whatever reason..... so if it's so easy, lets see that parse and cast count on an ROS raid and that'll be that.
It's not a waste of time at all. It helps you in determining your recruitment strategy. If you need DPS and have a few open slots in caster groups then you should consider a shaman that knows how to DPS in addition to your standard classes. When you're playing a game with as few good players left as EQ you can't afford to limit yourself unnecessarily. Could they be nerfed tomorrow? Yeah, maybe. That's also true for most classes but at least if you get stuck with an extra shaman after a nerf that's not really the worst thing to happen. I'm just trying to help and I got no reason to make things up or lie. Then we have two good shamans posting in the thread saying basically the same thing I am but they're not good enough either? All you're coming back with is basically 'well that's not how we have traditionally done things in my guild' and 'you're not even a shaman'. You even admitted to not knowing much about necros or how caster ADPS would effect your DPS. Maybe you should talk to Morulak for 5 minutes and then do some parsing on your own with proper ADPS and then come back here and explain an actual argument.
By that logic, if wizards were given a shaman like healing/utility package, we shouldn't talk about it because they wouldn't have a lot of time to heal anyway, right?
Okay, I'll bite. Shaman below are alts that were guest raiding with us. And yes I know our DPS otherwise is not top notch, but here's an example of shaman (alts) sustaining >200k for you. Oh, and before you say its not ROS, we just finally beat Queen so I have no ROS raids to show you. Looks to me (not a shaman) that Shaman #6 did quite a bit of healing as well. From the cast lists it looks like #6 had some Caster ADPS support and I'm not noticing any on #5. /2 A Di`Zok sycophant (12), A Di`Zok blademaster (10), A Di`Zok soldier (6), A Di`Zok puppet (6), A Di`Zok mender (6) in 682s, 3015195k @4421108sdps --- #1 Rogue 199342k@292290sdps (293150dps in 680s) [6.61%] --- #2 Berserker + pets 180282k@264343sdps (265903dps in 678s) [5.98%] --- #3 Ranger + pets 160338k@235099sdps (236836dps in 677s) [5.32%] --- #4 Rogue 159297k@233574sdps (235299dps in 677s) [5.28%] --- #5 Shaman + pets 158864k@232938sdps (235703dps in 674s) [5.27%] --- #6 Shaman + pets 146755k@215184sdps (218386dps in 672s) [4.87%] --- #7 Beastlord + pets 139751k@204914sdps (206122dps in 678s) [4.63%] --- #8 Rogue 125744k@184375sdps (184917dps in 680s) [4.17%] --- #9 Necromancer + pets 119690k@175499sdps (178909dps in 669s) [3.97%] --- #10 Monk + pets 96162k@141000sdps (144823dps in 664s) [3.19%] #5 Shaman - 172 --- Ancestral Aid XXXI - 1 --- Blessing of Unity - 1 --- Breath of Elkikatar - 10 --- Call of the Ancients XIII - 1 --- Cannibalization XV - 5 --- Cloud of Renewal - 10 --- Communion of the Cheetah - 1 --- Dampen Resistance XIII - 1 --- Erogo's Curse Rk. II - 11 --- Eyrzekla's Recourse - 11 --- First Spire of Ancestors IV - 2 --- Fleeting Spirit (Decay) V - 1 --- Geomantra XXII - 1 --- Glyph of the Cataclysm - 1 --- Group Perfected Silent Presence - 1 --- Jinx Rk. II - 11 --- Lion's Roar 6 - 24 --- Mass Group Buff - 1 --- Nectar of Suffering Rk. II - 8 --- Prophet's Gift of the Ruchu - 4 --- Rabid Bear XI - 1 --- Received Auspice of the Hunter - 3 --- Received Paragon - 2 --- Received Shaman Epic - 4 --- Rirwech's Affliction Rk. II - 4 --- Roar of the Lion - 9 --- Scorpikis Blood Rk. II - 10 --- Silent Casting V - 1 --- Spirit Call XXVII - 1 --- Spiritual Channeling IV - 1 --- Spiritual Swell Rk. III - 21 --- Strike of Poison I - 7 --- Vermistipus's Pandemic - 10 --- Vicious Rabbit - 1 #6 Shaman - 178 --- Ancestral Aid XXXI - 2 --- Ancient Alliance Rk. III - 2 --- Blessing of Unity - 1 --- Call of the Wild III - 1 --- Cannibalization XV - 3 --- Cloud of Renewal Rk. II - 36 --- Erogo's Curse - 6 --- Eyrzekla's Mending Rk. II - 24 --- First Spire of Ancestors IV - 2 --- Fleeting Spirit (Decay) V - 1 --- Frostbitten Gift Rk. II - 34 --- Jinx - 7 --- Malosinete V - 1 --- Mass Group Buff - 1 --- Nectar of Suffering Rk. II - 6 --- Prehistoric Intervention Rk. II - 1 --- Preincarnation II - 1 --- Prophet's Gift of the Ruchu - 1 --- Received Auspice of the Hunter - 3 --- Received Bard Epic - 3 --- Received Chromatic Haze - 2 --- Received Chromatic Haze Proc - 11 --- Received Fierce Eye - 3 --- Received Illusions of Grandeur - 1 --- Received Paragon - 2 --- Received Quick Time - 1 --- Received Shaman Epic - 1 --- Rirwech's Affliction - 6 --- Scorpikis Blood - 7 --- Spiritual Channeling IV - 1 --- Spiritual Swell Rk. III - 31 --- Turgur's Swarm VI - 1 --- Visionary's Unity VI - 1 --- Wind of Malosinete IV - 1
well, first off you're right, it's not RoS. but that being said, despite casting the majority of our dot lines they still aren't hitting 250k. It's close enough for government work, so benefit of the doubt that it can be done with them all. on a realistic note, they're both using first spire instead of third spire, which is great for the one in a caster group and will up their personal dps... but for the one in the melee group he's denying his whole group out of a proc rate, and accuracy boost for their burns. losing the effect of 3rd spire timed with epic, roar and other burns I wonder if that's not a net loss for raid's overall DPS?
I've asked you multiple times to give an explanation, you're obviously knowledgeable on caster adps, so why don't you actually discuss something instead of commenting from the cheap seats? you've yet to do anything but antagonize. if you actually read anything in this discussion rather than just seeing where you could best be a troll you'd see that I've already made the concession that if you have an extra shaman it wouldn't be a bad thing to throw them in a caster dps group. but instead you're more interested in talking about how little I know about dps while conveniently not actually providing any specifics that you can be challenged on.... i'm done with you unless you want to actually participate in the conversation.
Each dot cast+recovery is ~3.8s. That means 4 dots takes 15.2s to cast. On engage, I use Wind of Malo for the instant cast(mages put spell malo a few secs after engage) and then slow, which I think is just a 1s cast? That's ~17s to do malo/slow/4 dot casts. That gives enough time to hit epic after malo/slow and still be sub 20s. I don't see why you'd cast recourse/splash in the first few secs of engage. You should have lion/HoT going for around a 15kHoT and then hit recourse a few secs before engage to get the delayed heals going. As for the debuff slots, it's not a matter of getting dots on before the boss reaches debuff max, it's a matter of getting them on eventually and keeping them on. You should be able to get 1-2 on before max at the very least, and then as you hit 3/4th, the short duration stuff that takes up a lot of those initial slots should start to fade.If your dots bounce, oh well. Cast again in a few secs and hope to get lucky. The point is that once they're on, keep them on so you're not fighting with others for those slots further along in the event. I don't think anyone is arguing that shaman shouldn't be in a melee group if you don't have one in all slots already. We run 3 tank groups, 3 melee dps, and 3 caster dps. If we only have 3 shaman on, they're going in those 3 melee groups. We have 5 raiding shaman though. So if we've got all 5 on, two of them are going in a tank group or caster dps group. The consideration in those situations is: is it better to put a low parsing non/low-adps class (wizard) into a tank group in favor of putting a high dps shaman into the caster group. As for my 250k number, I don't have parses available to me currently at work, but one of our shaman hit ~235k dps on our ROS T2.1 win last night. The event was around 10-12m and I think that landed him top 5. I'd have to check, but I'm 90% sure from glancing at logs last night that he wasn't using all 7 dots and probably just 4-5. He was in a melee group I believe and focuses primarily on DPS.
Shaman 5 used all 7 dots. Shaman 6 used only 5 dots. I'm not sure why they only used that many, as they only cast 10 different spells. Probably could have done more with bite to take advantage of those chromatic procs. Those are both pretty respectable parses especially for alts. As for first vs third spire, what I normally do on this event is hit third on the initial engage when we start our full burn. This gives the group the ADPS and I do my "melee burn" of rabid bear to go along with all the group's melee adps stuff. During this time, Im establishing my full 7 dots on the queen. Once spire is back up, I hit first along with my dot burn, and get all the dots that are already on boss(the slots that I lock up) cast as twincasted versions. Looks like they both had a decent enough amount of splashes/HoTs, but shaman 5 had no single target healing. Shaman 6 had some, but is using mending versus reckless(slower cast time, less base heal).
Fairly sure #5 shaman was my shaman Slopox. His group included 2 clerics and a warrior so it was not a melee-centric group which is why I used 1st spire. All my damage was against the queen who, at times, was invulnerable and hence his parse is probably inflated. There were definitely times I reapplied dots during her invulnerable phase so all 7 would be running once the sycophants were dead. I don't think I had slot3 RoS augs, missing a few rk2s, and not started my dot focus AAs during this parse. I've hit 260k on reaper with 200k on snowblaze for 10 minute parse on the EoK event for combined of 460k. The biggest help to DPS was making Gina triggers for dot expiration. DPS went up big time once we implemented decent Gina triggers.
This helps out a ton with keeping your debuff slot locked down which as I've said prior is key to shaman dps. Curious what method you're using for starting timers. I've tried both taking the intial damage tick and timing from that, and the "Soandso feels sickly" or whatever the emote message for the dot is. Method 1 doesn't allow the timer to refresh if you reapply. Method 2 doesn't work well if you've got other's damage on and another shaman starts to dot. I prefer method 2, but hate that it gets screwed if another shaman starts to dot. I have everyone's damage messages on so I can parse others. Maybe there's a third method you're using?
I only trigger on expiration message, that makes sure the recourse dots are running when the primary dot is reapplied.
Ah, okay. So you don't track duration of the dot as it's on mob, just grab the worn off message and cast when you see that.
I don't use recourse in the first few seconds of engage as I agree with what you're saying there, but especially in events where we move into a room to engage (ie T2 event 2) I typically hit splash centered on a tank as soon as we get into position. What I don't want to have happen is to block a necro or druid's (who can parse 400k+ dps) stuff just to get my extra dps. with the 3 dots I typically use they don't have a recourse so once they're on I try to keep them on. That being said, our dps is pretty high as a whole, being 200kdps might get you in the top 20 on some events. yeah, putting extra shaman into a caster group wouldn't be a bad thing under these conditions. yeah, it does seem that 250k is doable if you're focusing on DPS based on the previous parse. i'd just like to see where it's been done in RoS to confirm. preferably on the T1 stuff just cuz that's what's on farm atm.
Sorox, it was indeed Slopox. Why didn't you do 250k, it would have made my post easier! Also, it may be inflated vs. The actual damage you did to help beat the raid, but it's not inflated for what a shaman can do against a single mob.
I can understand blocking a druid's revamped dots, but Necro are using dots from 3 expansions ago towards the end of their 20-dot order. There's no way those base <3k damage dots are doing more damage than our poison/magic ones that have base damage of >18k (Blood Rk. 3). Even our lowest disease of 11k base would probably outparse them. It's worth blocking a tiny portion of their dps in order to get our full dps. If a necro has a few other heavy dotters, they should just limit themself to one spellset and try and throw fast dots adds tbh. I forgot to post it, but my shaman guildy did hit 235k on T2.1 on our win this week. He wasn't using a full dot lineup. 250k is certainly doable. Heck, I did 185k on our cactus raid last night using 6 dots, no burns, and in a tank group with no bard/adps.
unfortunately there's no way to control which effect gets blocked, and with so many people trying to just get a slot and hold it, their big recourse dots tend to get blocked rather than anything tiny they may have been casting. I agree though that it should be coordinated. If our dots are better than what they're casting then they should stop casting that and we should include ours.
From last night's raids: Slopox has: EOK raid magic/disease/poison focus All dps AAs including dot focus AAs for RoS done 9% focus from TBM All dot slot3s from ROS EoK familiar Used 3rd spire since I was in melee group, I had 2 spell sets as I wanted to train myself to land all 7 dots + fera + use rain spell. It was my first time swapping spell sets so this will get better. /GU The Incarnate Droga in 176s, 547204k @3109114sdps --- #1 Slopox + pets 55439k@314994sdps (348673dps in 159s) [10.13%] The Incarnate Droga on 1/23/2018 Slopox - 40 --- Ancestral Aid XXXI - 1 --- Breath of Elkikatar Rk. II - 2 --- Cannibalization XV - 1 --- Cloud of Renewal Rk. II - 1 --- Cry Havoc - 1 --- Erogo's Curse Rk. II - 3 --- Eyrzekla's Recourse Rk. II - 4 --- Feralisata Rk. II - 2 --- Fleeting Spirit (Decay) V - 1 --- Jinx Rk. II - 3 --- Mass Group Buff - 1 --- Mawmun's Venom Rk. II - 1 --- Nectar of Suffering Rk. II - 2 --- Prophet's Gift of the Ruchu - 1 --- Received Bard Epic - 1 --- Received Fierce Eye - 1 --- Received Paragon - 1 --- Received Quick Time - 1 --- Received Ruaabri's Fury - 1 --- Received Shaman Epic - 1 --- Received Twincast - 1 --- Ri`zyr's Rain of Venom Rk. II - 2 --- Rirwech's Malosinata - 2 --- Roar of the Lion - 2 --- Scorpikis Blood Rk. II - 2 --- Spike of Ice II - 1 --- Spirit Call XXVII - 1 --- Spiritual Swell Rk. III - 3 --- Third Spire of Ancestors IV - 1 --- Vermistipus's Pandemic Rk. II - 2 Produced by GamParse v1.5.2.17 Satisfied with running only 3 dots on Cactiiki. I was shuffling spells around during event, trying to find out the best way to be useful on the adds. /GU Cactiikii in 1455s, 1591756k @1093990sdps --- #5 Slopox 178559k@122721sdps (122721dps in 1455s) [11.22%] Cactiikii on 1/23/2018 Slopox - 266 --- Ancestral Aid XXXI - 2 --- Ancestral Guardian Spirit IX - 1 --- Blessing of Unity - 3 --- Call of the Ancients XIII - 1 --- Call of the Wild III - 3 --- Cannibalization XV - 9 --- Circle of Life III - 1 --- Cloud of Renewal Rk. II - 10 --- Communion of the Cheetah - 1 --- Cry Havoc - 10 --- Erogo's Curse Rk. II - 27 --- Erogo's Drowse - 11 --- Eyrzekla's Recourse Rk. II - 7 --- Fleeting Spirit (Decay) V - 1 --- Frostbitten Gift Rk. II - 16 --- Group Pact of the Wolf XIII - 4 --- Incapacity Rk. II - 5 --- Intensity of the Resolute - 1 --- Malosinete V - 7 --- Mass Group Buff - 1 --- Nectar of Suffering Rk. II - 29 --- Prehistoric Intervention Rk. II - 1 --- Prophet's Gift of the Ruchu - 6 --- Received Auspice of the Hunter - 5 --- Received Bard Epic - 5 --- Received Fierce Eye - 6 --- Received Paragon - 4 --- Received Quick Time - 2 --- Received Ruaabri's Fury - 1 --- Received Shaman Epic - 6 --- Received Twincast - 1 --- Reckless Regeneration Rk. III - 4 --- Reckless Rejuvenation Rk. II - 19 --- Rirwech's Malosinata - 24 --- Roar of the Lion - 8 --- Silent Casting V - 1 --- Spiritual Channeling IV - 1 --- Spiritual Swell Rk. III - 25 --- Talisman of the Sabretooth - 5 --- Third Spire of Ancestors IV - 3 --- Turgur's Swarm VI - 15 --- Union of Spirits XXV - 2 --- Unity of the Wulthan Rk. II - 2 Produced by GamParse v1.5.2.17 and here's combined ROS event /GU Combined: A monstrous succulent in 1474s, 3952108k @2681213sdps --- #4 Slopox 234233k@158910sdps (160214dps in 1462s) [5.93%] Any ideas on improving are most welcome!
