well, i'm not familiar with how much DPS mages are really capable of putting out sustained... so I went safe and left them off.
No, it's only fair to compare priest DPS while healing to DPS class DPS, since priests are group healers. Also Shaman are normally in melee DPS groups, so they can only be compared without caster ADPS to casters with ADPS. These are the EQ forums, let's be logical here....
yeah, who cares if those zerkers live. they don't deeps anyways. LOL not sure if you're serious or not, but that last line had me rolling. theoretical max dps discussion is fine, since that's where Kizant excels. once he actually lists something to discuss we can see what would be tossed when we have to allow for the reality that a shaman will rarely if ever NOT have healing duties.
1. When me/necro both have ample debuff slots and I'm in full DPS mode, I have only beat our best necro once or twice. Can't remember being beat by a wiz(I don't think any of our wiz are elite). 2. There are 7 dot lines that can be stacked as a shm. 2 magic, 2 poison, 3 disease. Going out of mana in under 20m is hard. 5-7m+ of burning maybe longer before initially OOM. Then you hit Channelling and have 5m of no mana use in which time you're back to full. Then another 5-7m+ before more tricks needed. 3. 100k can be accomplished with under full dot lineup. Probably the 2 magic/posion can do that. Throw in the disease and it's pretty easy to sustain 150k basically forever on a single mob/boss. Throw in mini bosses/adds that don't die in 10s and it can be higher. I don't think other classes are sustaining 2-3x that. 4. I think it depends more on how your raid is made up/event. If your raid only has 3-4 clerics, then you'd probably be better utilized in focusing more on healing the MTO/add tanks if they need it than trying to keep dots up. If your on an event that has one boss that is a simple tank/spank with limited group healing and no MTO healing needed, then sure load up the DPS and go hard. I'm talking on events like EoK 2.1, 2.2, 3.1, 3.3 etc. When I can go full DPS on an event like prince or queen, it's not too hard to go 200-250k over the course of the 15m fight or however long that normally takes us. I don't have parse numbers to look at while at work. Rarely does this not put me top 5 for these events. On add heavy events where people can AOE or I can't get a full burn in, I'm lucky to get top 10. Edit to note: All of these numbers are of me in a melee group most of the time with a bard. When I go full dps, it's normally on events that I know I can keep group alive with the 3-4 heals i keep memmed and don't have issues with keeping everyone alive.
Of course any group that a shaman is in, will be required to heal. Spamming splash is a given in any raid event ever. Keeping recourse on cooldown is a given. Keeping group HoT is a given. Other than that though, there's very few events that I'm single target healing my group members. 95% of my single target healing goes to the MTO or add tanks as needed. When I'm healing the MTO on an event, I'm spamming them with heals as fast as they refresh. Cactus/Gorowyn/Skyfire raids don't really require more than a few single target melee group heals per event. I'm guessing maybe 15 per event out of the ~300 spells I cast. From what I've seen of the T2 raids, they'll be the same. From EOK, the only raid that really required a real focus on single target melee group healing was Ancient Dragon due to the massive amount of AOEs.
that's the kicker isn't it... at least in my guild it's rare to have enough debuff slots to go around once you account for the usual debuffs, necros, and druids big dots.. so there's not a whole lot left to be split between ~4 shamans. especially once other classes start throwing stuff on it. by your math, you're still a few minutes shy of 20 and you're completely out of mana and the big mana tricks having never casted a heal or lion. clickies and other tricks probably can get you to 20 min of straight burns, but without heals the rest of your group is now dead and the guild is out significantly more DPS than you're doing. 150k dps is the price point currently for our shamans. that's Erogo's, Jinx, and Scorpikis. This can be kept up indefinitely w/o having to dance around mana usage too much, and has the added bonus of not taking up so much of your cast time that you can't heal your group. we're still tweaking to see where we can get some more gains but that seems to be where we fall out without letting people die. sure, it's been said before in this thread that your exact spell lineup depends heavily on the event and guild makeup.
agreed. but 3 single target heals, hot, 2 group heals, gift, splash and lion.... that's 9 out of 13 spell slots that really can't be swapped out during an event. you could load the other 4 with dots but you're still 3 shy of keeping all 7 lines up. So loading 3 dots and a buff (alliance?) makes the most sense to me. and with 3 dots, as I said above, 150kdps sustained is the price point from what I've found in RoS.
since you're the king of how to dps with a shaman kizant (do you even have one?)... please... inform the masses. otherwise take yourself back to the cheap seats.
Lol you just did the work. 150k without trying is OP plain and simple. Now put one in a caster ADPS group in a DPS role and it's insane. I'm not sharing other peoples' parses. Stop being obtuse.
The trick here is to get your dots on first, and don't ever let them expire. In EOK this was especially easy with the two combination dots. In under 15s i could have all 7 dots on and rolling. Set up some gina triggers to track timers and cast before the dots wear off. It's a bit harder in ROS going back to 7 dots, but if you're only keeping 3-4 spells up, it shouldn't be an issue to get them on and keep them on. That was just rough guestimates. I don't know exactly how long the initial OOM period is. There's not too many events that I have issues unless I die multiple times or am dotting up lots of adds. A quick parse I did in GH with no ADPS/burns and just those 3 dots. This is with focus AA for each and EOK raid focus. Combat Dummy Beza in 647s, 50823k @78552sdps --- Jetsam 50823k@78552sdps (78552dps in 647s) It was hovering around 80k before weardown of dots. If you did a Fleeting Spirit and had standard melee group ADPS, I could see that jumping to 150k over 10m. Here's with the addition of Nectar(and of course it's secondary): Combat Dummy Beza in 650s, 71433k @109896sdps --- Jetsam 71433k@109896sdps (109896dps in 650s) It was around 118k before weardown. There's no way I'd keep all those heals up if I'm trying to do decent dps and know the event can let me get away with lax group healing. Gift, Splash, Reckless, Recourse, HoT, Lion, Alliance is all the healing that should be needed. If we've got more shaman and the tanks are good, I'd drop alliance for another reckless. That gives you 6 slots for dots. And you either swap in Breath/Pandemic or just be lazy and use the previous combination dot that casts the previous version of both. All 7 dots, using no burns/adps, just refreshing as they wear. This is with the previous combination dot for breath/pandemic. Combat Dummy Beza in 692s, 113544k @164080sdps --- Jetsam 113544k@164080sdps (164080dps in 692s)
I LOLd... you guys are assuming that you're doing nothing but dot... which if that's how you roll then sweet. I like it.... but it's not realistic in current content. straight up, there's more important things to do than dotting in the first 10 sec of an encounter. by then if your actual DPS classes aren't slacking then at best you're struggling to get all your dots on before the rest are filled. if you're getting them on and keeping them on, then you might as well not bother with nectar or rirwech's, because they're stupid mana inefficient and without their doom effects it's not worth it. you guestimated the original OOM period almost spot on for me. ~6 minutes is right if i'm throwing just dots out there. 4-5 If i'm also casting my ADPS and healing like I should be... using everything I end up with about 17 minutes total under ideal circumstances before i'm spent. if I pull back to just the high dmg to mana ratio dots then I can run the duration of most any event. so you're saying that 150k is the price point? go figure =P
are you seriously advocating putting a shaman in a caster dps group in a dps role? go home, you're drunk.
Why not? That was the point of my post, although maybe I was being too sarcastic for it to come across. When non-DPS classes are given DPS-class level DPS, they generally justify it by saying they can't do it while also performing their traditional role, or that, because of their traditional role, they normally wouldn't have proper ADPS to compete. Tanks made the same basic arguments in EoK. If you're going to compare the DPS of different classes, it has to be apples to apples. That means, if you're going to accurately examine Shaman DPS, it has to be done with a Shaman going full DPS mode with full ADPS. If that Shaman can compete with or beat other DPS classes with ADPS (whose only choice is going full DPS mode, since that's their role), then there is a major balance issue. The fact that Shaman can also heal really well doesn't in any way invalidate what they can do when not healing. To be fair to Shaman, this isn't an issue specific to them. Druid, Enchanter, and Shaman DoTs all saw ~65% increases in damage during RoS beta, whereas most other spells saw ~21% increases. I have absolutely no clue why this is, but it's not hard to see how a balance issue could come about from that. They were already very strong.
just looking at parses over the last few weeks the DPS price point for Wizards, Druids, Chanters, and Necros appears to be 100k+ DPS above what i'm capable of pushing on a pure burn. that fact alone might justify putting a shaman into a caster dps group for the bump... honestly i'm not all that familiar with exactly how much of a bump caster adps will give... but it's still only justified if you can keep shamans in the melee groups as well. otherwise the lost dps from a shaman out of the melee dps groups would make it a net loss to the guild.
What is there to do in the inital 20-30s of an encounter for a shaman? Especially in ROS events. Cactus: Should have HoT on and lion hit as event is triggered. Malo/slow boss, and then you get your 3-4 dots on the boss if you're just half-assing the dps. That should take under 20s. Goro: You fight one boss at a time, so same thing applies. Malo/Slow and then load your few dots and either heal, or go full dps. Refresh dots as needed. Skyfire: Wind of Malo/Tigirs. Adds don't really reach debuff limits, so throw a dot or two on each add and profit. Throw splashes between dots as it refreshes. Drusella: Same as cactus. As for nectar/affliction, I don't use those as you mentioned. I need to do some comparisons between using the EOK combination disease spell versus nectar. Even if you were to use nectar, the recourse of it uses same slot as the dot, and then you watch for a few open slots before refreshing. The recourse on nectar crits for 300kish and lasts for 50s or so. Potentially making it better than the combination dot. I'll do some parsing tonight. 150k should be pretty doable for 3-4 dots on an event. If you're going full out (7 dots) in a melee group, I'd expect closer to 250k. As for putting a shaman in a caster group, I don't think that it's unreasonable. Our crew has 5 raiding shaman. Most nights we only have 3-4 on, and due to our low cleric numbers the extra shaman gets throw into a tank group as a secondary. What's the ADPS difference in having a bard in your group along with the melee adps stuff (because you melee while dpsing) versus having a druid/ench in a melee group? Doesn't most of the caster adps benefit nukes, which we really only have one worth using.
Dru doesn't add much, just aura proc. Black Wolf, as you mention, only amplifies nuke crits, so almost exclusively procs for shm. That's the same basic ADPS a druid offers necromancers, though, which will come up again in a bit… Enc, though. Twincast Aura works on dots. Augmenting Aura works on dots. Illusions of Grandeur magnifies dot crits enormously. The Beguiler's Synergy focuses the damage of a Curse/Jinx hit. Chromatic Haze, activated & proc, do dirty things if they can be lined up with, for instance, the Nectar stinger. And necromancer Defiler's Synergy adds crit damage full time. Speculatively, even with a completely balanced roster, I'd happily displace a necro group's druid into a doubled-up spot with wizards (and then magicians) to let an ambitious shm see whassup.
Well generally speaking, the first few seconds will be taken up with malo/slow on the boss, followed by the next few seconds being taken up by the first splash cast + epic (depending on the event of course). between casts and recovery times that puts you at just under 10s into the event..... by which point, as I said, roughly half the debuff slots on the boss should pretty much be taken up. now it takes ~5sec + recovery to cast just 3 dots on the boss, although you could up that to 5 or 6 if you use the eok combination dots instead of RoS lines. in any case, by the time you get 3 casts off for dots the debuff slots are pretty thin and you're relying on luck on the timing to land anything else. hell half the time my 3rd dot doesn't even land if I have to pause to heal an overzealous zerker. on skyfire, cactus and crypt robbers you absolutely should have higher dps based on casting on the adds as well as the boss. but that's balanced with having to wind single target heals into the rotation for folks who get out of position or when the mob is further away. the vault event is so damn chaotic at this point that I can't honestly speak to what the best outcome is. I still contend that if you're able to get 7 dot lines on the mob then your other caster dps is slacking. maybe our raids are the exception rather than the rule when it comes to dps. I can see justification for putting an extra shaman as the necro group healer with a chanter and bard. I honestly hope a necro group doesn't take as much healing as the zerkers..... those guys really know how to piss a mob off quickly.
