Warrior Stances

Discussion in 'Tanks' started by Brosa, Jul 11, 2014.

  1. Wayylon Augur

    I main a ranger so not entirely disliked view... I am glad you guys got 2h damage now, despite all the gripes that's good utility.
  2. Mogvet New Member

    So I tanked the Xulous Prime raid tonight, once with S&B and couple times with DW as raid mobs now have 100% strike through and correct me if I am wrong but that negates shield block all together as I never get blocks anymore. This change to raid mobs also blows through dodge. Here are the parses from tonight:

    S&B:
    /GU Tanking summary for: Mogvet --- Total damage: 4536810 --- Avg hit: 15431 --- Swings: 472 --- Defended: 29 (6.1%) --- Hit: 294 (62.3%) --- Missed: 149 (31.6%) --- Accuracy: 66.4% --- Dodged: 0 (0%) --- Parried: 23 (4.9%) --- Blocked: 0 (0%) --- Riposted: 6 (1.3%) --- Absorbed: 0 (0%)


    DW:

    /GU Tanking summary for: Mogvet --- Total damage: 5633815 --- Avg hit: 14482 --- Swings: 574 --- Defended: 44 (7.7%) --- Hit: 389 (67.8%) --- Missed: 141 (24.6%) --- Accuracy: 73.4% --- Dodged: 0 (0%) --- Parried: 32 (5.6%) --- Blocked: 0 (0%) --- Riposted: 12 (2.2%) --- Absorbed: 0 (0%)

    Now granted this wasn't for the same amount of time but was the closest I could find. Does offhand help with parries and reposte? Or am I looking at this all wrong?
    feiddan and Wayylon like this.
  3. Dre. Altoholic

    Offensive disc + low level ninja AFK healer.
  4. Wayylon Augur

    DW average hit is lower, that's pretty comical.
  5. Kreacher Augur

    I'm pretty sure it's going to be your disc usage. The parrys are likely from flash of anger.
    Without knowing when you popped NTTB/ Guardian's Bravery/Last Stand/Ward of Certitudes/Armour of Experience/ etc we cannot deduce anything else from this parse.
  6. Dre. Altoholic

  7. Dre. Altoholic

    No. Mechanics wise, you will riposte all attacks with your primary. Parry doesn't weapon check either hand, pretty sure you can parry with bare fists.

    When parsing mitigation, the hit distribution graph is what's relevant. You also want much larger sample sizes and very controlled environments (same enemies, consistent buffs, no disc use, etc)

    This is a big part of why mitigation is so misunderstood - logs of a normal play session aren't good for providing usable data.
  8. Battleaxe Augur

    Mar 7, 2014. see ship to ship combat.

    It's possible that SOE made an error that made it through Beta and/or the test server. It's also possible that what they decided to do after Mar 7th changed - after all DW and 2H are not for tanking (or was that statement altered somewhat after it was plainly stated?).

    In any event SOE will do what SOE intends. I somewhat doubt that will turn out to be DW having sufficient defensive characteristics and offensive power to be the go to setup for 99% of all content 24/7. Not given the natural tanking setup for tanks vs. the DPS setups for melee DPS classes. Not given that a raid Warrior already out classes a group geared Warrior both using S&B in current content and making it raider high DPS DW vs. grouper with low DPS S&B would be ludicrous.

    DW is superior to S&B in DPS and 2H in defense. Fixed that.

    Which would not make it broken, but simply not a good choice when mobs are meaningfully hurting you and you are tanking (S&B is for tanking) or doing so little damage to you that you can ignore defense entirely and wail away at your opponents with a max damage/minimun defense alternative (2H).

    It sure is nice finding all forms of armament - 1H, 2H, and shield - useful depending on your role.
  9. Dre. Altoholic

    I believe the last iteration is 'not for raid-boss main tanking, but maybe off-tanking'.
    Particularly when Warriors should actually buffblock Dual Wield Proficiency, lest they accidentally activate it and get themselves killed.
    Ludicrousness seems to be standard operating procedure these days when it comes to changes to our class.
    I'm getting interesting numbers with S&B+2H prof+WarSeol's on burns, and generally better survivability with 2H than DW prof. The negative mit mod is looking to be very problematic. Getting hit more often seems preferable to getting hit harder.
  10. Koryu Professional Roadkill

    Well, I found another buff conflict. The Monk's "Master's Aura Effect" overwrites 2H Proficiency, which gets a bit irritating when the Monk is a puller constantly leaving range and returning to cancel your DPS buff, and you're in a supplementary DPS role.
  11. Taloz New Member

    I noticed the same conflict with Monk's Masters Aura. Aura and 2H Proficiency buff coexist fine as long as you stay in range,but as Koryu said,when the monk goes out of range to pull,then comes back into range,the Aura cancels the 2H buff. Very annoying since I often group with a monk and another warrior,so one of us
    is using 2h in a dps role.
  12. Koryu Professional Roadkill

    They don't really coexist, they directly overwrite each other. You cannot have both 2H Proficiency and Master's Aura buffs at the same time. The Warrior in the DPS role can add the Master's Aura Effect to the list of blocked buffs to prevent constantly losing 2H Proficiency as the Monk leaves and returns to range.

    But my blocked buff list is pretty full.
  13. Taloz New Member

    Interesting. So,you cast 2h prof. While masters aura is already running,and both buff icons appear to be running at the same time. Even though both icons are up,you are only getting the effect from one of them? Since Masters aura overwrites 2h when the monk comes back into range,I am assuming then that Masters aura is overwriting 2h at all times,even when 2h looks like it is running? Or is that incorrect?
  14. Dre. Altoholic

    DI 20 hits from blue con normal mobs hitting me in Shard's.
    Shield 7708
    2H 10205
    DW 11201 <- Reduced mitigation from baseline
  15. Daegun Augur

    Dual wield stance confirmed worthless right now.
  16. WarriorsCry New Member

    Sword and board is for tanking, 2 hand is for dps... what do you need DW for?

    Just let it go man.
  17. Koryu Professional Roadkill

    No.

    If the content isn't challenging enough to require a Shield perma-bolted onto your arm, we could actually bring more damage to the group if DW Proficiency was working. We're pretty close to having flexibility and actual decision making to be done with regards to weapon setup, once DW is fixed. Until then, the Proficiency stances are totally binary. Either you are Tank Supreme with lame damage, or you are Decent Damage with no defensive skills.
  18. Battleaxe Augur

    If the content is not challenging we can bring more DPS to the group using 2H and offensive disciplines and stances. Perhaps OP missed that fact.

    If it's more challenging we can use S&B maybe with some offensive discs snuck in, or without, or with defensive discs, or with S&B stance, or.. So many decisions. So not a binary choice.

    It's one thing to suggest things are not as devs intend them to be or that devs should alter their intentions. (The few actual bugs being reported are helpful). It's quite another to post "bug reports" that are in realty efforts to promote a wrong setup for a given role. None of the seen usually DWing classes (Bard, Rogue, Ranger) are tanks - it's not a tanking setup.
  19. Koryu Professional Roadkill

    VS a corrupted coralspine, ~45 minutes, dual wielding, no Proficiency buffs
    /g Tanking summary for: Koryu --- Total damage: 13556884 --- Avg hit: 5077 --- Swings: 5285 --- Defended: 1739 (32.9%) --- Hit: 2670 (50.5%) --- Missed: 876 (16.6%) --- Accuracy: 75.3% --- Dodged: 463 (11.5%) --- Parried: 732 (13.9%) --- Blocked: 0 (0%) --- Riposted: 544 (11.9%) --- Absorbed: 0 (0%)

    [IMG]

    VS a corrupted coralspine, ~45 minutes, dual wielding, Dual Wield Proficiency buff on
    /g Tanking summary for: Koryu --- Total damage: 13363693 --- Avg hit: 5403 --- Swings: 4893 --- Defended: 1636 (33.4%) --- Hit: 2473 (50.5%) --- Missed: 784 (16%) --- Accuracy: 75.9% --- Dodged: 312 (8.7%) --- Parried: 785 (16%) --- Blocked: 0 (0%) --- Riposted: 539 (13.1%) --- Absorbed: 0 (0%)

    [IMG]Looks like the Dodge penalty and the Parry buff are both having very little effect. Lost 3% Dodge to gain 2% Parry.
    Max hit with no Proficiency buff on was 10777, but with the buff max hit went up to 11833. (11833/10777) = 1.0979, about a 10% increase in damage taken.

    If there's no defensive benefit to using the buff, maybe there's an offensive one. Let's try checking that out. Gonna have to use the Cirppling Blow graphs so that the numbers are legible, though.

    Self-buffs only, 212% haste, dual wielding, no Proficiency buffs
    /g Combat Dummy Lena in 1812s, 8473k @4676dps --- Koryu 8473k @4676dps (100%)
    /g Koryu -vs- Combat Dummy Lena: -- DMG: 8472945 -- DPS: 4676 -- Scaled: 4676 -- Pierce: 4971444 -- Slash: 3334672 -- DirDmg: 166829 -- Non-crit rate: 62.2% -- crit rate: 35.8% -- crippling rate: 2% -- Attempts: 8152 -- Hits: 6330 -- Missed: 1822 -- Accuracy: 77.6% -- Avg Hit: 1338 -- Max hit: 4814 -- DMG to PC: 0

    [IMG]

    Self-buffs only, 212% haste, dual wielding, Dual Wield Proficiency buff on
    /g Combat Dummy Lena in 1827s, 10813k @5919dps --- Koryu 10813k @5919dps (100%)
    /g Koryu -vs- Combat Dummy Lena: -- DMG: 10813309 -- DPS: 5919 -- Scaled: 5919 -- Pierce: 6381189 -- Slash: 4267078 -- DirDmg: 165042 -- Non-crit rate: 62.7% -- crit rate: 34.8% -- crippling rate: 2.5% -- Attempts: 8213 -- Hits: 6422 -- Missed: 1791 -- Accuracy: 78.2% -- Avg Hit: 1683 -- Max hit: 6226 -- DMG to PC: 0

    [IMG]

    Self-buffs only, 212% haste, sword and board, no Proficiency buffs
    /g Combat Dummy Lena in 1850s, 9308k @5031dps --- Koryu 9308k @5031dps (100%)
    /g Koryu -vs- Combat Dummy Lena: -- DMG: 9308216 -- DPS: 5031 -- Scaled: 5031 -- Pierce: 9126937 -- DirDmg: 181279 -- Non-crit rate: 64% -- crit rate: 33.9% -- crippling rate: 2.1% -- Attempts: 4776 -- Hits: 3769 -- Missed: 1007 -- Accuracy: 78.9% -- Avg Hit: 2469 -- Max hit: 8778 -- DMG to PC: 0

    [IMG]

    (5919/4676) = 1.2658, DW Prof is a 27% increase of DWing without the buff
    (5919/5031) = 1.1765, DW Prof is an 18% increase over S&B DPS with the same primary

    I guess that sounds pretty good, if you're looking at it as percentages. But 6K DPS is laughable. I am doing 18K with my 2Hander. If DW is supposed to be an in-between stance, I would expect 12K, about a halfway point between Defensive Proficiency and 2H Proficiency.
  20. Koryu Professional Roadkill

    If the content is not AS challenging, but you are still in the tanking role, that is what DW should be for. Tanking with 2H Proficiency will get you more damage output, sure, but you are effectively increasing the mob's accuracy by giving up so much of your own defenses. There is a gap between the two difficulties where S&B tanking is unnecessary, but soaking the extra hits due to hampered defensive skills is just gonna aggro your healer. Maybe I need to provide examples of challenging?

    CotF T1 zones: I would like to use DW for tanking. If they're named, I'd probably rather have the shield out.
    CotF T2 zones: Depends on the con, or the case of a multi-pull. If they're blue, DW. If they're yellow or named, definitely swapping the shield back in. Even cons, I'd have to get a feel for.
    Real challenges, like Fall of Lord Bayle mission: S&B all the way.

    Maybe that's a little unrealistic, but I will find out once DW is functioning correctly.

    The choice is binary. Out of 3 stances to choose from, only two will be used. If you want to be Tank Supreme, use Defensive Proficiency. If you want to do Decent Damage, use 2H Proficiency. If you want somewhere in-between, it doesn't exist. DW increases damage taken (a worse penalty than the hit on our defensive skills) for less damage output than with 2H. So why bother using it? Ever?

    The buff effect is not working as designed, you can see it in the spell data compared to the spell description, already highlighted in this very thread. The buff effect was intended for tanking, by having increased mitigation, not decreased, which was stated by the Dev who designed it, also quoted into this very thread. How much it should mitigate, or how much damage it should do, is up to the Dev. I am providing feedback for him to consider, and only in Weapon Stance threads. Stacking issues may or may not be bugs, I don't know unless we ever get a response, because intent to stack or not was never stated. The stance not mitigating at all is however a bug, and is getting reported as such. Whether you believe DW tanking is a "wrong setup for a given role" or not, increased mitigation is what the spell description says, and that is what the Dev said the intent of the ability was.

    As much as you're afraid of DW 24/7 making a return, it won't, even if DW Proficiency gets fixed. DW having less mitigation built into it and lacking the shield for raw AC and completely blocking hits while equipped means that Defensive Proficiency will remain superior to DW, period, always. It hurts you not at all for the rest of us to get the buff fixed, it hurts you not at all for the rest of us to have more flexibility and decision-making. You go right ahead and stick with your 100% always superior tanking option of S&B Defensive Proficiency, while the rest of us adapt a little.