I really don't think this is intended. All hybrid classes get all of their discs extended by 70% from their buff extending AAs. It just is what it is. I doubt they are going to give warriors an extended Fort just b/c hybrids are lucky enough to have a huge bug work out in their favor .
I most certainly was NOT suggesting self healing, just highlighting the fact that our lack of healing necessitates superior mitigation abilities, not copy/pastes from those who can. I think you'll agree we need to reduce damage in more/unique ways, with abilities work very well and scale in both directions.
Just wanted to reply to this part. From my understanding it decays on spells after 70. http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=33423
almost like asking for an AE taunt, that does nothing but a dare to everything in range to attack you... something like the proc off of the Coral Hilted Tulwar, but instead of a cold based nuke damage, just be pure +hate without any AE damage...
No that is completely wrong, the buff Paladins get from clicking their Epic "Flames of the Valiant" is a straight up 40% bonus to all heals that land on them, there is no degradation to that after level 70. I just logged in a Paladin friend's toon just to be 100% sure (I was 99.9999% sure before that). They can have that buff on them 20% of the time that they are playing (It's up every 5 mins) What your thinking of that degrades with level is the worn focus on their epic (a 40% healing focus that decays after level 75) just like all heal focus' do. I just added up all of their abilities that they can stack, and Paladins can increase heals to themselves by 139% if they wanted to (lol not that they would need to use them all at the same time, that is beyond overkill). A warrior can stack a whopping 10-19% (resplendent glory buff is a 0-9% not fixed 9%) increase to incoming heals by themself. 139% Paladin vs. 10-19% warrior, i see no problem there :/
Maybe War's don't "need more", maybe other tank classes have too much in comparison? Here is my post from another thread: You mention group content tanking. You might want to consider a re-roll to a sk (I'm doing the same w 96 war full VoA T4 and 4500 AA). Some Reasons: FD (you can pull, and seperately survive someones train etc) Perfected Group invis vs undead aa Self invis Lifetaps Snare that is far better than Call of Challenge AoE agro in groups that is far better than a war's AoE agro Swarm ability (solo for really nice exp compared to a war) Mounts (I'll stop here, but I imagine there are others) Reason not to: War's can tank some Raid mobs SK cannot If you want to give up the above SK abilities to get your 3 minutes of fame tanking a Raid boss a few times a week while "Final Stand" is running, then warrior is for you. If not, I highly recommend SK. The more candy that is handed out to individual classes, the more WoW like this game becomes - a bunch of little soloing heros.
This is the biggest misconception out there, that warriors are the big bad raid tanks that nobody else can match. This is 100% completely wrong in every way. I make the tank lines for ROI and the ONLY REASON I usually put warriors on bosses that are offtanked for the entire event is b/c they are TERRIBLE at everything else, while being sufficient at that role. Knights are so much more use being able to offtank adds without needing healers to heal them, or splashing/healing/rotating 1st spire on the tanks groups. If there were enough skilled knights out there (paladins especially) In a perfect raid world, I would rather have a knight for every single tank I had to chose from. Every one of our knights can tank any of the big bad bosses in this game (assuming the same gear) just as well if not better (probably better tbh) than warriors can due to their insane range of abilities/stacking/self healing/vies/healingboosts/AAs that warriors can't even begin to touch. The only time a warrior might be able to out tank a Knight in the same gear is if the event continually spammed silences or completely mana drains constantly.
Knights have always been able to tank stuff after they are overgeared for the event. As someone in a mixed voa t2/t3 guild going through ToV for the first time, warriors are much better at tanking the bosses after fortitude / deflection are down
If your knights are terrible then yes that is true, but a knight that actually knows what they are doing puts a warrior in the same gear to shame, without question.
I am tired of all the cry baby warriors out there. Learn to play your class. No knight can out tank or out dps me ever. But they can do things i can't. Warriors focus on being a warrior., not a knight. I cant heal blah blah, i can't insta FD blah blah. Get your aa's get your DON done , get your MPG done. go get your some ac augs, the dodge augs. and learn to play your class.
Based on your prior comments on this thread I don't think you have any idea of what you are talking about. Suggesting knights can heal themselves when they get low or save reproval for when they get to 30%? That only works if you are overgeared for the event. There is no "saving" things for when someone gets low for many guilds out there geared up in voa t2/t3 when even final standing warriors are getting nearly rounded. The game is much to fast to "save" something for only when you are low when tanking the event is still a struggle.
Lol you obviously have trouble with reading comprehension. I have been talking about Warriors getting a reprove ability for the past few days. I was talking about if warriors got Reprove that is how it could be used for them, NOT KNIGHTS. Whenever we (Warriors) see that we are taking a nice spike of damage, we could hit it to give healers a little more time for a heal to land. Right now Warriors have nothing else besides Flash, a 21 min reuse ability for a small heal/dot, heal pots (lawl), a few ghetto heal clickies, or armor of experience that they can use to pad themselves if they are about to die. If I had Reprove as a warrior, i would not blindly hit it whenever it popped like knights can (because they can heal themselves too why wouldn't you), I would pick and choose it a little more carefully (while still using it a lot since its a 15 sec refresh).
And if your tanks are undergeared then I would suggest to your guild that you gear your tanks first or it won't matter what class of tank you use, you are going to fail for a lot longer than you would if you geared them first. Gear flows a lot faster when you are able to win events b/c you have geared the people that need it first.
I promise you, I know exactly what the warrior class is capable of. I am also aware of what knights are capable of. I think its cute that you think you can out tank or out dps any knight out there lawl. I would love to see how you would stack up to any of our knights. I'm the #1 hp and #1 ac warrior serverwide in the best guild in the game, completely maxed out in every way, and I couldn't say with a straight face that i could out dps any knight out there. The raid tanking part is a tossup. The group tanking part, I won't even touch that. This has never been a whining thread. Like the name of the topic clearly states, it is about Warrior Ideas to make our class better. That is my only goal here. If someone posts incorrect information about a knight, I will correct them. That has pretty much been what the past few posts have been about and why we are slightly off topic. I really don't know why people that are not tanks are even in this conversation tbh.
We do win events and it's thanks to warriors, not knights. Rangers are better at tanking raid bosses than knight's unless the knight is overgeared for the content.
lol... so delusional... lol The point fllint is alluding to is that warrior discs are set up to allow others to heal them more efficiently than knights. The problem with this is that game design dictates that it is not the quality of heals but the quantity of heals that make a tank good. The days of the CH rotation are over everything is twitch. Knights have ways to save themselves when a big damage spike is going to land and priest incoming heals are lagging for the split seconds that determine whether or not a tank survives that particular combat round. A good tank will 1. control aggro focusing all attention towards them and then 2. nullify all incoming dps via fort/deflection so that the healers can transition their focus towards that tank. This allows x time frame for heals to start rolling on this tank and for debuffs/slows to reduce the mobs capability of doing damage meanwhile also increasing the tanks survival via things like cleric tank spire, short term hp boosts, runes, spell runes healing mods etc. When avoidance tanking fades warriors hit final stand and knights hit mantle. The bonus here for knights is that shadowknights can also hit their epic AND visage of death (which is an aa that stacks) allowing all their swings as well as their riposte damage to heal x% of their base damage to the mob, this stabilizes spike dps considerably. Since visage is such a large boost to their base melee this is a gigantic boon over the raw mitigation that final stand provides. For paladins the paladin can stack healing modifications to make the quality of the heals incoming that much more potent as well as increasing their own healing and proc heals to overcome the advantage of the raw mitigation factor of warriors. On top of all of this knights have passive (get hit and heal/rune) as well as active healing advantages where they can dictate when the heal lands instead of being solely reliant on the heals of others. If a paladin takes a huge damage round they might cast lay of hands on themselves as well as hitting repove. That will stop a melee round as well as take their HP to full and place a heal over time on them that helps on a per tic basis. Sk's can do the same by using the "dire" lifetap line. Healers are not reactive healing. They are proactive healing. Heals are incoming 24/7 in chains of fast casting spells, heal over time and delayed heals... these heals are offsetting mob dps by melee and spells. Every now and again a large spike of dps will fluctuate the tanks hp such that the mob dps exceeds the incoming heals. A warrior cannot fill that gap. Knights can. Anyone who thinks that warrior disc mitigation is that far ahead of knight healing is living in an age of denial, knights have a 35% mitigation vie for 1 minute and a 25% mitigation vie to follow it on top of their other tools. This was a result from UF expansion highlighting the warrior advantage by making mobs hit like freight trains and knight discs being wildly inferior. They did 2 things following that by 1 improving knight tank discs and 2 reducing raid named dps to compensate for inadequate players/guilds. (all at the behest of guilds incapable of handling the content on the prowess of the # of warriors present in a raid - there just weren't enough to go around for all the raiding guilds). Fumerak in original form prenerf highlighted the warrior advantage. The devs just can't afford to tune raid mobs in that fashion as it makes non top 5 raid guilds disadvantaged while making raid content exclusive (I'm sure fllint enjoyed tanking this event as it made him 100% vital to the raid). So they tune things down. When mobs are not tuned for exclusivity knights become more and more viable. The tank parity is welcomed. Except that for the years that warriors sat pretty on their throne of supreme raid tanks holding tank parity at bay and assuring superiority knights gained utility. So much utility that when the devs finally said enough is enough there are 3 tank classes and it isn't sustainable for warriors to be the only tank class for raids in a dwindling player base, the warriors come to the raid empty handed. And now you have a situation where utility and self heals are out performing superior discs and innate mitigation. The only way to resolve this is to either: boost warrior utility to further tank parity tune raid content up which creates exclusivity create warrior abilities that offset spike damage (ie reprove) other options combination of all of the above What shouldn't be done is to bury your head in the sand and pretend that this isn't the current state of the game. Warriors are being out performed because content doesn't make use of their superior discs as it makes content too difficult for the average player/raid guild. It shouldn't result in knight nerfs - it should instead boost the warrior class into usefulness again. It should also limit exclusive tanking so that a situation like this is never created again.
Nice post Shiftie! I didn't know the raid warrior was in such bad shape these days haven't raided for a few years now. I do know the group warrior really is hurting and needs a massive revamp. Boxed one for years and finally gave up and went to a warrior merc. You can't compare the merc to the warrior they are on two different levels. Sure the Merc has it's negative points ( being stupid ) but everything else it has going for it makes up for it.
I agree, Great post from Shiftie. His post along with a lot of the disc timers, etc. from Fllint covered most of the bases with what is currently wrong with the warrior class in game. It is also nice to hear from Rightious as a non-raiding warrior. It is just sad there came a day when an NPC works better than even a group geared warrior. I am a raid warrior and even decently geared I have to be very careful in current content or Ill end up dead on even trash mobs. I can only imagine the pain of a group geared warrior. And to begin that broken record again, since I have read this is an aa forum not a disc forum. I would like a new line of aa's that improves parry/riposte or overall mitigation/deflection while using other weapons than a shield, Innate NOT timed. I am not talking on par with sword and board usage in defense situations, a shield should always be superior in that respect, but enough that I can actually use other types/combinations of weapons in game again vs. ANY content. As well as a damage boost to be on par with sword and board usage since duel wield and any two handed weapon doesnt even come close ( and for anybody that wants to bang the warriors are not dps argument again, being on par with sword and board is an aggro issue not a dps issue. I am not looking to parse top 10 Im looking to be able to kill in group situations as a useful member as well as add hate without having to use 10000 more discs/aa's with timers that last too long). I am not a knight, I am a warrior. If you are a warrior and you want sword and board more power to you but I think you should just roll a pally/sk and give us back our class. One that is a viable option in todays era of Everquest.
Roar of Challenge didn't get an upgrade in ROF, and it should have, as its our only AE disc that's safe to use around mezzed mobs. It'd also be nice if the recast timer was cut too. ----- As far as buffing warriors, I don't personally agree with some of the views of war vs knight balanceexpressed here, but it does seems like we have a lot of weak abilities that are ripe for buffing and/or revamping. Warlord's Resurgence was extremely weak and seems pretty much abandoned; it'd be nice if it had a blade guardian-style mechanic where it could trigger a heal if your HP drops under a certain level. Commanding voice should be moved to a different slot so it stops overwriting myrmidon's skill, and there are ways it could be buffed (eg add a parry mod slot to it too.) Knuckle (verb) line has always been utterly useless, not much more to say. Armor of (x) runes line would be more useful if it were changed to a buff instead of a disc. ------ I think blade guardian brought a much needed mechanic to the table, and would like to see more "fire at low hp" abilities brought to the class.
