Curious which classes? Even my healers on hard heal fights I am stacking fast cast and crit heal aa then multiple aa heals spire, bp click, silent casting, and more. I'm usually hitting 3 to 5 buttons each time an oh crap hits or I think it might. All my casters have mini burns that are 2 to 4 and main burns that are 3-6. And the other 2 tank classes have multi defensives to stack too. I only have a high zerker for melee, but I stopped playing him last expansion, and he has 3-6 for mini and main burns then. Also not I'm. Not talking normal sustain group play, mainly when high dps/heal/defense is required.
Ok I see what you are saying about only limited (12) spell slots limiting your choices and discs sharing timers so spell users don't get bent out of shape. But discs that have nothing to do with each other sharing a timer is ridiculous. Lets all take a deep breath and realize that LS isn't the saving grace end all be all super man immortality disc to save all of norrath. To add to Mak and Sojs' convo, yes its the best defensive ability in the game but when really hits the fan you still need to stack other abilities with it. Just as most classes need to weave / stack abilities together. I regularly play warrior, shaman, beastlord, bard, necromancer and recently retired ranger, rogue, enchanter. The only class I have to hit more buttons or stack more abilities on is the beastlord. Ranger is right in there though. If the fight lasts long enough its hands down warrior. In an extended named encounter im hitting upward of 12+ abilities on my warrior.
This is what warriors need to keep up with the other classes these days, and it is still going to be on the low side. This is not a spell, it is a regen, you cannot target it on anyone else, nor can it be dispelled. Is all the self healing "the other classes" get gonna do more than 5%-10% of their hp bar every 6 seconds? You bet. And that stacks absolutely fine with heals over time as well (which BTW, can crit, and often do). You are just not thinking big enough.
I'm in ultra fast paced groups. The type where we pull an HA until extended target is filled, where the enchanter looks down the whole bunch, and the two wizards blow up mobs. Apart from the initial lock down, where a few mobs might hit someone else, I have no trouble keeping aggro. The rune procs which you dismiss so easily will easily keep aggro over whatever the healer is doing or vs. any chanter runes or buffs getting recasted -- healer aggro is simply that low these days -- in other words, just a few seconds into the fight, all mobs in extended target will have a red "100" displayed to it on my screen, without using a single AE ability. The wizards never take a hit, but they're also smart enough not to drop Ethereals right of the bat. AE taunt I save for emergencies. Stormwheel of course cannot be used (although I sometimes will use it just before the first AE mez lands). Roar of Challenge I use whenever it is up.
In my opinion, the best fixes for tanks over-all and warriors in particular would be to ... 1. dramatically increase their innate mitigation or eliminate the cap on AC. Let's face it, the current returns are negligible when compared to mob damage boosts. 2. reduce reuse timers on discs 3. unlink unrelated discs and combine (not link) some of the more minor disciplines.
. And how about groups without CC? How about groups I go into where I have zerkers furious ramping a dozen mobs at a time, wiz full burning and rogues/monks that rip aggro on most our aggro abilities outside BoA/PA/PoF? Those are the groups I'm speaking about. Melee rip huge aggro without even trying to and to keep multiple mobs on lock down at the same time using just 1 aggro ability is a complete joke. Our basic aggro abilities do roughly 10k and that gap quickly dissolves with top notch melee dps. My statement remains. Anyone can individually kill mobs that are mezzed. That's easy - you don't even need rune procs for that as enc's can simple mem blur the mob prior to breaking mezz. Who ever said I have trouble with healer aggro? lol. No, it's the fast paced melee groups that are a pain in my when I'm tanking all the mobs at once and just slaughtering away. There are times we are killing a dozen mobs within 15-20 seconds and there are times where the melee DO get aggro - even with ae aggro - and nearly die because of it. I've fiddled with rune procs a lot. In the groups I'm in - little to no CC - they do little to less for me. A single hit round will nullify that aggro when it comes to rogues/monks/bsts/zerkers.
Tric, that is player choice not bad game design. Teach your fellow players how to work around you, maybe they need to not go full boar if you cannot keep up, that doesnt mean there is anything wrong with you or your abilities. DPS can easily out agro any tank, thats why they were given agro reducing abilities. having a zerker hit them all like that means I let the zerker die, thats just bad player decisions. If you don't have CC then don't pull multiples, thats where a puller comes into play. Sorry but what you are stating player issues not mechanic issues.
I'd rather not inhibit groups. I just continue doing my job, which I do fine 95% of the time. It's just a pain in the the times when not a single aggro ability is up. It's just stupid having every ability at 20 seconds or more.
Terror of Poira Demand for Power Duplicitous Audacity Grelleth's Skin Touch of Falsin Dire Insinuation Touch of Urash Touch of Klonda Torrent of Agony Steadfast Stance Spear of Grelleth Insidious Deflection If I know I need more ae hate I will switch out Duplicitous Audacity with AE hate spell, but usually my AA ones are all I have. Insidious Deflection an SK has to be very careful in using because of adds being mezed etc, but its good agro and another tap when on a single add. Terror and spear are for quick agro, do terror then spear. Demand is for agro, but more for AC same with torrent of Agony. The rest are all to increase my hp cap and to fill it as much and as fast as possible. So in answer usually to load more than one AE agro spell, your giving up single target agro, which we are the weakest in to begin with of the 3 tanks, or I have to give up survivability. Other SK's load up different spell sets, but that's my main one if I'm on add duty or MT duty. If I'm on backup, as in they don't think they will need me ill drop some agro for dots.
^^ that is a pretty universal spell set, give or take a couple of spells based on personal preference.
Not really "Universal" then is it, I mean some SK's don't bother to mem Steadfast Stance I hear, as it's only a 14k hitpoint boost.
I guess you omitted the personal preference part. As I have stared before on all raids I have that memed, Tearsin is a bit more geared than me, he may already have the 14k more hit points that I would. I DON'T use it in the group game as nothing there 1 rounds me, therefore I don't need it, and can put a dps or agro spell there depending on what the needs are of the group. Please learn there are different play styles out there and if yours isn't working and a bunch of others are, learn to adapt to them, I bet if Tearsin found content to where he could get rounded, but the 14k was what saved him, he would use it. Heck I watched a mostly ROF t2 war tank luclin last night in POS raid for over 13ish minutes(he used LS twice) and lived and we swaped to a new on on dark luclin. He did this with these skills that you guys keep saying suck. I was playing my cleric because we were short on them, we kept a 3rd spire rot on him in between LS, and had the pallies keep protective on him. he didn't even have a pally in his group for group armor, they were in my group, we took on the bearers. I'm not saying that wars cant use improvements, but come on, quite trying to downplay your abilites, talking to wars in game, is telling me that many on these boards are downplaying hard. With that in mind I still would love to see wars get a secondary big vie style disc, and cant wait to see the awesomeness (I hope) that the stances will be. This is because I have no class warfare envy or anything else. I need wars on my raid to tank the bosses so I can grab the adds. Anything that helps them, helps me. we all have our rolls and if wars do theirs better, I can do mine better.
It really doesn't matter if we seem to downplay our abilities here because the developers know most of us and what we can do is very easy accessible by them. I could name countless npcs I have single tanked when they would pretty much eat every other tank but that had no bearing at the time on the fact that things like mark of the mage hunter needed an improvement or we needed our hatred increased to make up for switching from dual wield swing aggro to shield swing aggro. Good healers on top of things make up for a lot of our negative class traits.
I agree about the healers. I don't like the downplay because it drives people away from the warrior class. It gives them false senses that they suck, when they are actually amazing, but could use a few tweaks and upgrades, which I am all for. What I would like to see is some of the more knowledgeable of the War class come and put an end to those that are not as knowledgeable posting dribble that usually ends up in class warfare and hurts wars and others. False information if not corrected has a way of spiraling and making things go bad when they should have never happened.
like the completely 100% wrong claim that bonebrood mantle gives AC, which is one of the stupidest things i've seen posted here in quite some time, and went completely unchallenged. (it absolutely doesn't, by the way)
I must have missed that one, I know someone corrected me that carapace DOES give ac (on the 88 and newer ones), but you are correct, Mantle does not.
I like the regen thing, or HoTs on us have higher heal% or crit rate. My problem with HoTs is that the game out-paces them. These days you can die 2-3 times over between HoT ticks. 6 seconds is a long time in this game now. I don't think most warriors want to be knights, but seeing how strong player heals are it is easy to be envious of them. They can make many group encounters trivially easy; we should definitely get tools to help narrow that gap. I do like the proc block ideas, or a massively larger rune on Ridicule. Edit: let me say I don't think knights are op. They need a lot of actions per minute so them being strong is perfectly acceptable. The problem is that half of warrior abilities do hardly nothing. So even with a skilled warrior doing a lot of actions per minute, you've done nothing to your survivability, mostly just got more aggro, which is the last thing we need.
well then i must be having an idiot moment because i could have sworn that conversation was about bonebrood mantle. well, score one for the idiocy of half-remembering things.
Its all good, we all do it from time to time, its a game, not a job I realized I had gotten to slack on keeping up with the newer abilities because they had been copy paste for so long, that I didn't know they added the AC bonus to carapace. I'm used to taking a real quick look, and going, nope nothing new, and going on.
