#1 Increase to the range of our hate discs and aa's by 100 units or more. #2 A no time to bleed type disc to help healers focus on healing the main tank and to decrease the gap between the healing we need compared to how well knights can heal themselves. #3 Abilities that fire when we do what we already have to do to increase our dps back to the 100 warrior 120 pure dps 80 knights how it used to be.Offensive disc without the negative effect and without locking out our last stand disc would of been perfect for this.Sustainable(not the endurance sustainable twist) #4 DW and 2handers balanced to be more dps then our sword and board set up and DW to be able to be used in group trash tanking when you are raid geared without losing all the mitigation and skills we get from our shield. Dw should let us parry 75% as well as the mitigation that the shield gives us . #5 More abilites that allow us to have more synergy when were using a shield . Another type when using DW. Another type when using 2hander. #6 fixing the issue with dodge parry and block not firing on raid con mobs (we have no avoidance in raids except fortitude and flash of anger right now) #7 add more avoidance to offset the healing power of knights in the group game only. #8 By a large margin increase the amount of hate our area effect hate abilities create ( a merc on reactive should not take aggro 2 secs after using stormwheel blades /rallying roar/enhanced ae taunt) #9 A new area of effect hate ability that does a lot 10000 hate ? But does not do any damage to break mezzes with a very fast refresh 30 secs ? #10 A warrior only augment that has force of anger 7 or higher with 35 ac or more plus hitpoints with 5 damage on it. #11 The return of our force of anger 7 or higher on our weapon so we can build single target hate on named instead of aoe hate on trash when we have no way to save ourselves from the added damage of the adds.(stunning strike should be deleted or only put on dps weapons)
Also the rare items like the shield from cotf raids should be equal power for all 3 tank classes not better for knights because of their aa. And they need to be like 4 x as common as they are right now.
# 12 Higher mod 2 caps for us only on avoidance / shielding / damage shield(to up passive dmg)/ Hp regen. # 13 Gear designed specifically for us with higher hp regen / shielding / damage shield/avoidance(visibles !) # 14 Augs just for us with higher skill caps that allow us to do better in the areas that make us the strongest(dodge /parry/shield block/riposte) that fit into slot 3 augment slots since ours stink Bash and kick mods need to be added to our gear instead of making us buy slot 3 augments from 4 - 5 years ago everytime we replace a non visible slot.
1) A defensive rune proc AA: would increase your AE aggro in addition to add mitigation. Something sort of like SK's Skin line, would also handle some of your mitigation issues 2) On Demand runes/mitigation < you guys don't want healing, but an On Demand Rune would give you more Aggro/AE aggro and also give you some on Demand mitigation (That would work in the same way an SK Tapping or Pal Healing would, except it would just prevent XXX Amount of damage) *** A big rune say 20k HP > 18s recast? *** A not so big rune 5k HP > 10s recast? 3) Higher innate HP regen Innately (something substantial 2400 or 3600/tick?) via AA: That would go along way to evening the gap Either way good luck Warriors.
1. Yep increase our aggro range. Awesome that someone suggested Warriors should get at-range and at-will aggro back in the day). 1b. Since mobs don't always aggro on the nearest player when they go live and the transistion seems to be timing based without a wide window to aggro. (You can have the mob targeted you go early or you go on time but the unatackable mob changes to the attackable one in such a way you can't tell when it goes live or you have to contiuallt retarget even though it looks targeted). Give classes in the Tank Archetype a Phantom, totem, pulsing area ability that you can use a bit early and that lasts on the order of 6 seconds. 2. IF we continuously need more mitigation than knights to make up for their self healing then we simply need more mitigation from the things that help us mitigate already. IF we need to put HP's back into our HP bar as in the case of facing many mobs or self-rescue then we need that ability. We have more mitigation than knights. Mitigation != healing anymore than healing ='d mitigation when knights got defensive abilities during GoD. 3. We're not going to see 100,120, 80. When using our DW or 2H DPS setup given the same degree of disc/ability use we should at least be at the botttom of the "pure melee" list and above knights. One old school caveat - except Paladins vs. undead and SK's if they are using everything they have for offense - in which case they should be relatively equal to us. 4. Warriors should do "Warriorly" DPS when taking the risks of tanking (a lot of that DPS will be attributable to others or as a result of tanking). S&B is for tanking and all of the members of the Tank Archetype should rely on shields in the same content. When DPSing with another player tanking DW & 2H should out perform S&B. DW and 2H are for DPS.
My suggestions are listed below. To be honest, every single one of these could be implemented without overpowering the class. If they were all put in, we might actually find ourselves on equal footing in the raw tanking department - maybe we'd even have that class defining 'edge' in raids that has fallen by the wayside. -significant increase to passive dps dual wielding and 2handed dps modalities, no increase to damage output while using a shield -fixing all parry/dodge/block firing on all content -parry mod while in dual wield to offset some of the pain in dropping a shield -riposte mod (lower than parry mod aforementioned) in 2hand mode to offset some of the pain in dropping a shield -NTTB in a sustainable but not abusable form -Further ranks of phalanx, 5-10 more ranks that don't stack with last stand -Last stand bumped 5-10% to compensate for the narrowed gap of the aforementioned suggestion -Passive aa line to increase potency of all incomming heals by 1/3/5% or 3/5/7% -Echo of anger hate mods increased from current values of 22/25% for group/raid to 32/35% respectively. Either that or dramatically increase proc based threat on warrior weapons and traditional hate augments to keep up with current threat generation. I actually miss having the sustained aggro generation once established that we used to have. Velious era "enraging blow" generated 700 base hate. Our best aggro procs these days aren't really all that much higher, but everyone's threat generation has increased exponentially. Discs can be used to overpower this, but I'm stingy with my yellow mana. -Further ranks of the "natural durability" aa line, warrior only, to give us a larger hp buffer over knights that we used to traditionally enjoy. To be honest, the end result of extending this line would need to bump a fully group geared warrior by 8-9k hp and raid geared warrior by 10-13k. This would help to offset the self-buff knights get which mirror but do not stack with the druid/shaman "Rampant Growth" line. Currently, a warrior not grouped with a druid/shaman is simply missing out on those potential hit points. Knights get those hit points by casting their own version regardless of who they are grouped with.
Bolding mine. This should not be restricted to raid-geared Warriors. This is hard to judge, but either the increase to parry chance should exceed shield block chance, or stance-specific damage reduction can be applied elsewhere. E.G. level-capped stun (only useful on trash mobs) This would require too large a boost to avoidance. A modest boost to avoidance, combined with boosts to HP and mitigation could be the answer. I hope your AE hate key isn't in the same sequence Another way to approach this would be to create a condition where healing a Warrior produces less agro than healing other classes. Healing NPC's such as mercs and pets generates no hate whatsoever - another place where we can clearly gain a lot of ground. Rallying Roar could use revisiting. The hit limit is extremely low and the resist mechanics seem curiously bugged. This and the previous aug comment seem too low-hanging for merit. When discussing "proper" Warrior weapons, Bloodfrenzy jumps to mind. That was a Warrior's weapon. Good ratio/stats plus unique skillmod and huge procrate mod. Out-agro'd every group weapon for about the next 10 expansions. Groovy graphic to boot. I'm gonna stop you with HP. We should have a sizeable advantage over every other class in this stat.
BB we always do our normal role in a group and we should be able to use DW when we are doing this to increase our dps. We should not have to bring 2 tanks to be able to do this . Just like knights should not be forced in group content to use a shield . They are just fine using their 2 hander. And this is the exact reasoning we should be fine tanking group content with DW (as long as it is not a named npc) And this will be the last time I make a counter arguement for posts in this thread but this is something almost every warrior in the game does not agree with. I dont use an ae key I click my ae abilties single as needed. Heck I would complete the entire expansion to get an upgraded copy of the bloodfrenzy . Force of anger is just our new hate plus dmg proc and is the only reason I used that . Now a days pure hate won't be very welcomed.
The DW classes are not tanks. "increase our DPS" - is the tip off, DW is a DPS setup. 2H is a DPS setup. There's absolutely no rationale for grabbing your offhander, a 2Hander, or a bow when one is going to tank. Would you expect to see Rangers walking about with a Shield all of the time? OOf course not - they are a DPS class and they use DW or 2H (or bow very occasionally) for DPS. We a tanking class. We generally tank. Shields are for tanking. But when we stand in for a DPS class, just like a Ranger it should be DW or 2H. You guys insist there should be no content where S&B provides a better total result in the DPSing with someone else tanking role. It's just as legitimate to expect S&B to always provide a better total outcome in the tanking role. Do you see Rangers running about with shields? Of course niot. Their usual role is DPSer while someone else tanks and they gear accordingly. So should we. Our usual role happens to be tank and we should gear accordingly. In other threads people complain that we don't have enough defensive capability, NTtB is needed 100% of the time. Well if that's the case then certainly a shield is not only needed but more appropriate than assuming a DPS setup and expecting a defensive ability to see you through. Elsewhere in your list you suggest there should be ways to distinguish S&B from DW from 2H. Nod there should be: Put EoA only one shields the next tier that is itemized. A tanking primary should have an Anger proc. It people want to put a DMG, DMG+DD, DMG+Rune, DMG+Stun on their primary that's their lookout. A tanking primary should be unsuitable as a DPSing while another person tanks best choice. A DPSing primary or secondary should not have a built in aggro proc. Ideally it would be a higher than normal ratio 1Hander (no elemental damage) with an aggro reduction proc. DPS classes or those DWing or using a 2Hander and standing in for a DPS class don't want aggro. I don't intend to go back and forth with you. You have your opinions some of which I think are mistaken and some inconsistent with what devs have said and have been doing for years). And I have my opinions. IF either set or just a single idea matches with what developers do, then it does. If it doesn't well we said what we thought and that really is all this forum is here to allow.
Battleblade we all know exactly how you feel. Most everybody disagrees with you and we'd all prefer that this thread does not devolve into yet another 'bblade vs the world' argument. Post your suggestions and leave it be. You are one voice and one vote amongst many.
Why do you bring up a class that is half of our class or cough a hybrid at all ? Rangers use shields when they tank if you did not know that ? Because they have to because they are only designed to tank for a short period where as we are always designed to tank and our mastering of all weapons and armor should give us an advantage and the ability to use certain set ups better then everyone else that includes tanking with 2 swords. Also why should a ranger use swords at all if you want to try to turn this into your stupid dw lame argument ? Because they are half WARRIOR. I didn't say distinguish I said abilities designed to work when using a shield that means shield topple and bash should not be all there is . There is only kick taunt and disarm for the entire time to use when using the other 2 weapon sets when the mob is not below 20% please go away or peistro can we please have a way to restrict people that add nonsense and useless information , infinitly repeated posts to the threads we want attention in? Also why should we be forced to have 10 different weapons to do the same thing other classes do and that we should already be able to do ? I do not care what you think BB and neither does 95% of the warrior community.
And Can we please make a poll so this debate about DW vrs S&B can finally be settled as to what the whole of the community wants ?
Also BB most of the reasons we became what we are is because 2 hybrids of our class sk and ranger became our class voice and also not one of the developers have played or raided as a warrior since level 60(straight from elidroth) . So I invite any of the development team to come on over to FV I will buy you a complete set of group armor but we will go out and farm your augments and all your aa I bet you wont last past lvl 80 and you will not come even close to any of us that provide the proper feedback that is 12 years or more.
Perhaps you were unaware of a few things: 1. While SOE marketing might be interested in polls because their function is to sell product to a market segment that wants it - the bigger the segment the better (which btw explains things like raid content becoming less exclusive and players generally having an easier time being successful)... ...developers are blown by both the winds of a expressed wants but also product integrity. Conduct a poll and Necros, for example, might not only want a bottomless mana pool but fast DoTs the size for the biggest nukes. 2. This forum isn't a random sample in the first place. Further, take a poll and the 90% of players who do not raid are highly likely to request raiding be shut down - or at least raiders get "raid capabilities" that do not translate to the group game instead of advantaging in group content too gear. No more walking about in the group game farming loot like a god and no more selling raid drops to keep the pp/Krono account plump - a Krono is just like $15.00 not spent on a monthly subscription. A penny saved is penny earned as they say. Nod even Rangers, a DPS class, uses shields when they tank. Seems to me you walked right in an closed the circle I left an opening in for you. DW is for DPS (look, there's a DPS class DPSing!!)....and shields are for tanking not because Rangers aren't stout enough, but because that's what it takes for anyone to tank in properly tuned content. The content is tuned too trivially? Then why sir ask for NTtB? The knight advantage is not and never has been superior to Warrior mitigation. It's been flexible combat self healing. Elidroth Mak? Let's remember it was Elidroth that said no he's not providing offhand parry. DW is not for tanking DW and 2H is for DPS. Elidroth Mak? Let;s remember that Elidroth worked on his own time to eliminate Defensive. And let's not forget the translation of another 5% from Final Stand to permanent mitigation - mitigation I predicted would bite us since any permanent mitigation boost we got would be matched by knights. It so very very was. You are entitled to post your opinions and I'm entitled to post mine. Let's remember in the previous thread I said NTtB addressed ONE of several advantages knight self-healing conferred. That I suggested it would not emerge infinitely sustainable and that it's blocking of detrimental effects would not stay. And much to your irritation I suggested how shields could be made for practical for Warriors - and they were Mak - and we benefited from shield AC not subject to the softcap, Shield Block, and our DPS when geared properly to perform our usual role was not horrible, Those unable to distinguish a change consistent with a TANK and that was mostly on target got us NTtB - something that proves every day mitigation != combat self healing. And which btw doesn't do anything to help not max lvl/max AA Warriors compete in fast experience groups which while being phased out in the future are definitely not phased out today. BTW Mak, we're not going to see 80, 100, 120. I can distinguish between pipe dream (revert NTtB back to the way it was!!) from possible pretty easily. I expect most other Warriors can too, but they don't want to jiggle the complainants. Now why not hone your suggestions rather than focusing on me. Let's kindly remember my main is a nearly 15 years calendar played Warrior. I've as big a stake in seeing us head in the right direction as anybody (except perhaps SOE employees. It is after all only my hobby - it's their livelihood.) I will try hard to give you credit for the stake you have in the game also - despite the fact you are stuck on DWing like a Ranger, would request 80, 100, 120, and etc.
if anything els should not dicuss midigation. the real topic here is EFFECTIVE HP what this means is simply think. how logn does our hp pool last compared to same geared/skilled sk and paladin now this is vastly diffrent depnding on content if content is weaker based on capabilitys of the enemyes ur fighting, paladins and sks effective HP skyrockets thru the roof(group game). but if the content your killing can almost one round you, warriros effective hp is slightly a head cuz of how our discs scales but its very close due to discs paladin and sks have gottent to balance it out. however in group content warriors are way behind the 2 hybrid tanks in effective hps - this is what need looks in to without breaking the raid game . one good way to do this is makeing a disc that occupys the disc window so defensive isent an option when you have this disc up. also our dps wile NOT tanking needs to go way up beeing the masters of arms we should be able to do atleast noticeble dps compared to our melee counterparts, be that with a 2 hander or 2 one handers dosent matter we should be able to function with both
I thought of all kinds ways to improve the situation of the Warrior class in the past, including significantly increased regen, better procs and having somekind of rune ability (all of these just to be "different" from Knights that get their benefits from self heals mostly). The end goal: to make a Warrior need as much healing as the other tank classes -- as it currently stands, it is rather odd that the Warrior class, with only one real role, tanking, needs more healing than the other tanks. The issues Warriors face are numerous: Grouping: Warriors require far more outside healing support than the other tanks. This, together with our lackluster damage output and our lack of utility or support roles, has made Warriors to be by far the worst tank in a group setting. Raiding: The Raid game is generally considered to be where Warriors shine, and any solution that addresses these concerns should not significantly upset the balance there. However, due to the Warrior class reliance on outside heals for even insignificant amounts of damage, Warriors often feel they should stay out of harms way when another Warrior is currently tanking (ie, they will avoid rampage, avoid helping with adds) as they need so much more healing than the other classes or donot have a dedicated healer for rampage damage (and why should they, Warriors do insignificant amounts of damage, they donot deserve a healer for that). In short: Warriors work as a team, and getting yourself in trouble while another is tanking is a liability to the whole team and to the raid. Soloability: Light blue mobs will eventually wear a Warrior down. As our only form of reliable healing are some underpowered procs and potions, a Light blue con will eventually kill a Warrior or force a 3 minute sitting break. Farming: In content considered by most classes as places where they cannot be killed, Warriors will eventually get worn down, and again, as they have no healing to speak of will die or need a break. Swarming: This is something I'm against. Swarming (for xp) should never have become possible in this game. Any solution for Warriors should not be a benefit to this kind of gameplay. Stacking: Many Warrior abilities donot stack well with other classes or in settings where we are fully buffed. Some passive AA's are even not stacking with our own discs (Phalanx of One). Solutions: Original NTTB: I thought it was brilliant -- it was better than any of the other solutions I had seen thus far, and it miraculously addressed pretty much everyconcern I listed above: It provided Warriors with a general mitigation boost, making them viable in the group game requiring less outside healing. In the raid game it provided a solution for rampage damage, made warriors more viable as add tanks while not overpowering them in their primary raid role. Furthermore, it made warriors more soloable and it solved problems in older content in a nice clean way, while at the same time not allowing warriors to become the kings of swarming. It also stacked with all other buffs, making it a no-brainer as to when this ability should be used. It did however also block damage shields and aura damage, which may not have been intended, although was a nice touch for the Warrior class and would have given Warriors a small niche (Warriors being able to melee certain mobs, while other classes were forced to use ranged or off-hand only attacks). Unsustainable NTTB: This new incarnation unfortunately doesn't address nearly as many of the concerns. First, it doesn't stack with other Vie's properly anymore. This is huge and single-handedly reduces the effectiveness of NTTB significantly vs. the old situation where one could benefit from Vie buffs: Code: Damage of Hit while:[/FONT] [FONT=courier new]Unbuffed With Vie With New NTTB With Old NTTB + Vie[/FONT] [FONT=courier new] 10k 9k 7k 6 - 6.3k[/FONT] [FONT=courier new] 20k 18k 17k 15 - 15.3k[/FONT] [FONT=courier new] 30k 27k 27k 24 - 24.3k[/FONT] [FONT=courier new] 40k 36k 37k 33 - 33.3k As you can see the new NTTB eventually makes things worse, but will also be less effective when it is needed most (when a big damage spike occurs). It's also a major nerf even for the common case where one has somekind of Vie buff up (Shining Armor or cleric aura), making NTTB far less effective even for lower hits. Couple this with the fact that Warriors now only 60% of the time even have this buff up and you get situations where it is becoming increasingly unclear how much damage a warrior is going to end up taking (in case it is unclear why this is bad, try healing a Monk for a while without them using their discs or Mend -- Tanks are supposed to take predictable damage). What's Then? I thought of all kinds ways to improve the situation of the Warrior class in the past, including significantly increased regen, better procs and having somekind of rune ability (all of these just to be "different" from Knights that get their benefits from self heals mostly). The end goal: to make a Warrior need as much healing as the other tank classes -- as it currently stands, it is rather odd that the Warrior class, with only one real role, tanking, needs more healing than the other tanks. The issues Warriors face are numerous: Grouping: Warriors require far more outside healing support than the other tanks. This, together with our lackluster damage output and our lack of utility or support roles, has made Warriors to be by far the worst tank in a group setting. Raiding: The Raid game is generally considered to be where Warriors shine, and any solution that addresses these concerns should not significantly upset the balance there. However, due to the Warrior class reliance on outside heals for even insignificant amounts of damage, Warriors often feel they should stay out of harms way when another Warrior is currently tanking (ie, they will avoid rampage, avoid helping with adds) as they need so much more healing than the other classes or donot have a dedicated healer for rampage damage (and why should they, Warriors do insignificant amounts of damage, they donot deserve a healer for that). In short: Warriors work as a team, and getting yourself in trouble while another is tanking is a liability to the whole team and to the raid. Soloability: Light blue mobs will eventually wear a Warrior down. As our only form of reliable healing are some underpowered procs and potions, a Light blue con will eventually kill a Warrior or force a 3 minute sitting break. Farming: In content considered by most classes as places where they cannot be killed, Warriors will eventually get worn down, and again, as they have no healing to speak of will die or need a break. Swarming: This is something I'm against. Swarming (for xp) should never have become possible in this game. Any solution for Warriors should not be a benefit to this kind of gameplay. Stacking: Many Warrior abilities donot stack well with other classes or in settings where we are fully buffed. Some passive AA's are even not stacking with our own discs (Phalanx of One). Solutions: Original NTTB: I thought it was brilliant -- it was better than any of the other solutions I had seen thus far, and it miraculously addressed pretty much everyconcern I listed above: It provided Warriors with a general mitigation boost, making them viable in the group game requiring less outside healing. In the raid game it provided a solution for rampage damage, made warriors more viable as add tanks while not overpowering them in their primary raid role. Furthermore, it made warriors more soloable and it solved problems in older content in a nice clean way, while at the same time not allowing warriors to become the kings of swarming. It also stacked with all other buffs, making it a no-brainer as to when this ability should be used. It did however also block damage shields and aura damage, which may not have been intended, although was a nice touch for the Warrior class and would have given Warriors a small niche (Warriors being able to melee certain mobs, while other classes were forced to use ranged or off-hand only attacks). Unsustainable NTTB: This new incarnation unfortunately doesn't address nearly as many of the concerns. First, it doesn't stack with other Vie's properly anymore. This is huge and single-handedly reduces the effectiveness of NTTB significantly vs. the old situation where one could benefit from Vie buffs: Damage of Hit while: Unbuffed With Vie With New NTTB With Old NTTB + Vie 10k 9k 7k 6 - 6.3k 20k 18k 17k 15 - 15.3k 30k 27k 27k 24 - 24.3k 40k 36k 37k 33 - 33.3k As you can see the new NTTB eventually makes things worse, but will also be less effective when it is needed most (when a big damage spike occurs). It's also a major nerf even for the common case where one has somekind of Vie buff up (Shining Armor or cleric aura), making NTTB far less effective even for lower hits. What Then? How will we then solve the Warrior class issues? Are we going to give them significantly more HP's? That's sure to impact the raid game, although it would fit well with the class: soaking damage and becoming very effective targets for healing. Are we going to boost innate regen to like 10% / tick? That would be comparable to what the old NTTB offered us, but without somekind of limitation, that would probably be exploitable for swarming. Increase innate mitigation even further? No matter how I look at it, the original incarnation of NTTB balanced all the issues quite well. It's such a shame it had to be nerfed, as now something new must be found that won't be overpowered when combined with the "new" NTTB, complicating the issues even further.
Great thread, and amazing post Ranpha ! I hope that this will get the attention it deserves and that we will finally be on par with knights after so many years of "yes, we understand your concern about the warrior class, it is on our to-do list..." - and when we finally get halfway to this state thanks to No Time to Bleed, it gets taken away from us with no valid explanation.
I have honed my suggestions many many times in other threads they have been drowned out by your endless debate. And now I have forgotten them. And the developers never read them for the same reason.
Great post and this particular point stands out the most. Round-to-round survivability is what it's about in EQ and when you are taking damage unpredictably, failure is likely. Even when you survive it is very stressful for the healers. On top of un-nerfing NTTB, mitigation boosts, significant HP boosts and large fast-reuse survival abilities would be a good start. Not exploitable since it doesn't scale up with the # of mobs.
Nice post Ranpha. I'd like to point out that: The preserving class uniqueness train left the station years ago. See Warriors should have inadequate aggro argument raised during LDoN Defensive abilities are Warrior specific and will not be shared Shields are for knights All relics of orthodoxy long since abandoned. With Monks having Mend and Warriors recovering HP's (poorly for the most part) there's no reasonable argument those two classes in the Tank Archetype can sit in the front of the bus but that one sits in the rear. We're all tanks and many capabilities must be common to the archetype. Giving knights more self-healing could not solve knight issues in GoD - sharing Warrior defensive abilities did. Giving Warriors more mitigation does not solve the full range of knight superiority because they can combat self-heal now. Arguing that two of the classes in the Tank Archetype should perform better in fast experience groups - Tank Parity only operating with knights having parity in our area of greatest strength while we have abject inferiority in all capabilities 2 of the 3 classes that tank share...it can't work. Things like Warriors having a hardest mob advantage to offset knight advantages vs. experience content will not work. They won't accept inferiority in the arena we were promised superiority. We certainly should accept inferiority in an arena they were not even promised superiority. Not experience gain rate - it's too central. 80, 100, 120 won't happen. It's worth pointing out to devs. But we are never going to see it again. Defensive, gaining at-range at-will aggro, shields more practical for Warriors, henchmen in the form of Steadfast Servants and later Cleric Mercs - all positive game changers for Warriors. NTtb will turn out, once repaired, to be "darned good" in one of the ~four areas where knights enjoy advantage because they can combat self heal.
