The funny thing is you guys are all making arguments for being able to tank while in 2h prof, That is not the reason for the proficiency, you have DW to do more dps while tanking. 2H is ALL about DPS, you have to give up your defensive properties to be able to do dps, and vice versa. Yes you would have to use one of your invulnerability discs to survive if the mob turns to you long enough to switch to tanking if the other tank died or is unable to get it back, same as SK/Pal bandaliers and hits deflection when that happens. That also gives time for the healer to switch to you, so win/win. Point is, you cant have your cake and eat it too! No other class is able to do a secondary task while still doing fine in their primary. Why should warriors be so special?
Where specifically did a warrior say he wanted to tank while using 2h? Rather, we are questioning why we have so many negatives to our usage of 2h weps compared to every class in the game? Casters have more defensive properties for a 2h then we do. Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't casters getting better mitigation/defensive parses using 2h with staff block than their own shield? Hmmm, something's not right. We are the only class in game game to have additional penalties for our dps setup on top of the innate ones everybody deals with.I suppose you could argue zerkers do too, but that's for a burn, not simply deciding to put on a different wep combo. Its hard to eat the cake when it was never made in the first place
Show me the negatives a Knight has to using a 2h weapon. Also show me why they do more DPS than I do without those negatives. While your at it show me the monks negatives to use a 2h weapon That is the whole point here. Can stop this BS about wanting to tank a mob with 2h proficiency, that is not what I want. I want to survive when a mob turns around and decides to hit me. With the negatives we take while burning -80% to dodge coupled with 35% increase to all damage taken. A mob turning on us is like being DTd good luck getting any disc off before you realize you are dead
Please tell me where you find a 35% decrease to mitigation and you also overstated the -% to dodge: Two-Handed Proficiency Description 1: Increase 2H Blunt Damage Modifier v2 by 110% 2: Increase 2H Slashing Damage Modifier v2 by 110% 3: Increase 2H Piercing Damage Modifier v2 by 110% 4: Decrease Chance to Parry by 60% 5: Decrease Chance to block by 60% 6: Decrease Chance to Dodge by 60% 7: Stacking: Overwrite existing spell if slot 4 is effect 'Damage Modifier v2 ' and < 100 8: Decrease 1H Slashing Damage Modifier v2 by 95% 9: Decrease Piercing Damage Modifier v2 by 95% 10: Stacking: Overwrite existing spell if slot 1 is effect 'Melee Mitigation' and < 50 11: Stacking: Overwrite existing spell if slot 1 is effect 'Damage Modifier v2 ' and < 100 12: Decrease 1H Blunt Damage Modifier by 95% Also btw, SK/Pal gain a small amount by going 2h, but its actually not that much, you can go through my old posts to see the dps we do with 2h.
Proficiency strips myrmidons. 20% from that coupled with 60% is 80% last time I did math. The -35% he is referring to losing shield prof. I wont count that, but you could argue we lose 10% because they transferred the passive 100% uptime mitigation of phalanx into sb/dw prof. So we take 10% more damage than what we used to when using 2h prior to proficiencies.
[34047/15523] Offensive Discipline Rk. III Classes: WAR/97 Skill: Offense (Combat Skill) Endurance: 1237, Upkeep: 10 per tick Target: Self Resist: Beneficial, Blockable: Yes Casting: 0s, Recast: 4m, Timer: 1 Duration: 3m (30 ticks), Extendable: Yes, Dispelable: No 1: Increase Hit Damage by 45% 2: Increase Min Hit Damage by 160% 3: Increase Hit Damage Bonus v2 by 316 4: Increase Hit Damage Taken by 35% Text: You lower your defenses to add strength to your attacks.
I am not saying there is no trade offs, 80% on 10% isn't that much of a diff, but meh whatever, your gonna dodge/parry/block 5% less than you already do now. The thing is, you are not taking that much more damage than if you didn't have the proficiency on in the first place is what i am trying to explain. You also have higher AC and natural mitigation than the other classes, so that just brings you on par with them. But you get 110% more damage to compensate for it, you can always just do 2h without using the proficiency. I will also run some parses for you guys, one of my guildees is going to set up with me to run the parses to see how much of a change it does for wars. I will also do some grouping with it to see how much more damage he takes. He was telling me as a raid geared war he can tank most content no prob with a 2h, but he doesn't run a dps group so S&B is just fine for him.
Yeah your gonna take that regardless of what stance you do if you click that disc, so really has no bearing on the conversation.
Assuming the Warrior has raid imp dodge, raid imp parry and the powar dodge aug, and the mob has no strikethrough value: Warrior Parry goes from ~20% base to ~12.5% while using 2h proficiency. Warrior Dodge goes from ~27% base to ~15.5% while using 2h proficiency. Block has no effect since Warriors don't have that skill. It does nothing to Riposte, or Miss Avoidance. There is no hit to mitigation from base to it, and there is no hit dmg increase.
Why would a Monk be penalized for using a DPS set up when they are DPS class? If you get blown up at +35% dmg taken, what do you think happens to the Melee DPS classes when Warriors have like 2x better mitigation then they do.
I am not sure on the timer offensive discipline locks us out of using last stand discipline and vice versa but removing that so we could use offensive discipline the last 10% of the npcs hp on a burn or burn it when we are a back up tank then switch to being a tank again would go a long way in making it not so detrimental. I am pretty sure monks or knights have no offensive disc that locks them out of being able to just bandoleer back to the normal set up and hitting their other discs. Which should be how all classes work. Warriors were the original offensive tank. It would be nice to get a small piece of that back. And making dual wield prof and 2 hand prof work with flash of anger would also give us back our oh crap rescue disc which would help relieve some of that detriment. Sojero come on man you don't use deflection to dps why would we waste or should we have to even waste fortitude to do our garbage dps ?
I certainly would be all for moving offensive disc to a diff timer, I agree that it shouldn't lock out LS.
Most of your dps comes from spells and always will come from spells ) I never use anything but defensive stance other then when they first came out when I tried to test them but I didn't see a big enough difference to waste my time with them. And I never use offensive disc because I am one of the fast reacting tanks always looking for a loose add or whatever so I need to live. A 5 k or so dps boost is not worth my time when it sacrifices my survival. That is about all I see any other tank above me since it came out so I am assuming they are getting it from offensive discipline or switching to 2 hand prof when not tanking.
Yeah no one gets good dps out of a 2h unless they are in a dps group, then it does make a difference. I know on raids no tank is really going to do it unless its a single mob burn situation. In a group, if you don't have decent Adps, bard, bst, etc also in the group its not really worth it either. and yeah ours is spell, but we do get some discs that really up it for short times.
You've got it all backwards. It wasn't until offensive/proficiencies tacked on penalties that we were explicitly excluded from being able to tank while they were active. Now, if our DPS stance actually made us competitive with classes like Ranger/Monk/Necro/Mage/BST (you know, classes who can sort of tank) those penalties might be reasonable. But the warrior running 2H prof ends up inferior in both. The cake doesn't exist and the system is broken. The thread went in this direction when Dzarn talked about eliminating proficiencies and the nuisance they are to the Warrior class. You're clinging to a system we hate and one we're discussing options for eliminating. Get with the program, man. Why are you so insistent on holding Warriors back?
LoL I will fight for wars to get benefits any day of the week, but I wont fight for something as ridiculous as that. You have higher innate mitigation and still tank better in 2h than they do without. Have you tested to see where your dps is when in a dps group compared to those groups? If not, then go test then we will talk about it. You need to forget about the cake and quit drinking the koolaide. If I do some testing and find that 2h in a dps group isn't decent then I would advocate fighting for some boosts, the problem is I haven't seen anyone do any actual parsing. So complaining about draw backs, that are not nearly as bad as what people are making them sound like, is mute until you can prove the benefits are not actually there. because until it is gone you have to live in the environment that you have. I also like the idea of stances, gives you room for growth, maybe AA down the line to improve/reduce penalties on some parts.
You get so close then just keep missing it. When is the last time you saw that? We DON'T use it because of the drawbacks
Since you asked about stacking with ADPS: Each test is ~6 minutes vs grey con dummies. Lvl 100 Bazaar weapons, 210% haste, War stomp (frozen) + Mashing Shield Topple No proficiencies: DW - 4632dps 2H - 4925dps 1H 4975dps DW/2H proficiency DW - 6847dps (+47.8%) 2H - 9564dps (+94.2%) "DPS Group" Bard songs (aria/procs/225% haste) and Zerk aura 1H - 8139dps (+63.6%) DW - 9618dps (+40.5%) 2H - 12972dps (+35.6%)
Also because no sane raid leader will waste a melee DPS group slot with a Warrior. BTW, Monks have historically got their best DPS out of dual wielding, usually fist weapons. The move to 2H Blunt being their best DPS and best defensive setup at all times is recent and probably a mistake with regards to AA ranks not awarded for H2H. Just as many other combat abilities, spells, and AAs seem to have been overlooked with TDS.
white combat dummy to 105, nothing other than auto attack clicked Base lobby buffs: with 2h prof -- Combat Dummy Qela in 1816s, 29646k @16325sdps --- Warrior 29646k@16325sdps (16325dps in 1816s) < -- 125 dps from procs without 2h prof -- Combat Dummy Qela in 1858s, 17321k @9322sdps --- Warrior 17321k@9322sdps (9322dps in 1858s) <-- 119 dps from procs bard songs, zerker aura + cry havoc, bst fero + offensive disc + 2h prof -- Combat Dummy Qela in 1803s, 54221k @30072sdps --- Warrior 54221k@30072sdps (30072dps in 1803s) <-- 1k dps from procs burn bard shm bst zerker aura + cry havoc + offensive disc + 2H prof (zerker in parse used epic + brutal discs rk3)--> Combat Dummy Qela in 1805s, 242226k @134197sdps --- Warrior 126966k@70341sdps (70341dps in 1805s) --- Zerker 115260k@63856sdps (77773dps in 1482s) <-- 1k dps from procs for war Did the zerker without clicks so same as war, did not do "full" burn or the dps would have been much mych higher on zerker, but furious ramp wares off in gh so not a good parse for the length to show short duration, just gave so to give a baseline compare. burn: bard shm bst zerker aura + cry havoc + offensive disc + Defensive prof -- Combat Dummy Qela in 1657s, 65100k @39288sdps --- Warrior 65100k@39288sdps (39288dps in 1657s) <-- 500 dps from procs bard songs, zerker aura + cry havoc, bst fero + offensive disc + def prof -- Combat Dummy Qela in 1323s, 19961k @15088sdps --- Warrior 19961k@15088sdps (15088dps in 1323s) Test done against mobs in same area, done solo. Mob was db to 105 war this is very little parsing from the defensive side, just wanted to make sure the differences were not extreame, bout where I would expect from losing the 30% mitigation from def prof for 2h prof. Def prof tanking Tanking summary for: Warrior --- Total Melee --- Damage: 810392 --- Avg hit: 4739 --- Attempts: 359 --- Riposted: 31/359 [8.64%] --- Parried: 43/328 [13.11%] --- Dodged: 29/285 [10.18%] --- Blocked: 21/256 [8.2%] --- Defended: 124/359 [34.54%] --- Missed: 64/235 [27.23%] --- Hits: 171/359 [47.63%] --- Real Hits: 171/359 [47.63%] An ursarachnid in 203s, 2158k @10629sdps --- Warrior 2158k@10629sdps (10629dps in 203s) 2h prof tanking Tanking summary for: Warrior --- Total Melee --- Damage: 705820 --- Avg hit: 6787 --- Attempts: 196 --- Riposted: 12/196 [6.12%] --- Parried: 18/184 [9.78%] --- Dodged: 14/166 [8.43%] --- Defended: 44/196 [22.45%] --- Missed: 48/152 [31.58%] --- Hits: 104/196 [53.06%] --- Real Hits: 104/196 [53.06%] An ursarachnid spinecrusher in 114s, 2224k @19511sdps --- Warrior 2224k@19511sdps (19511dps in 114s) I would personally ask for it to be looked at, doesn't look like its giving the full 110%, but it does scale up pretty well There might be something its not stacking with though that I don't know about for the base 110% that makes it look lower.
