No one is saying theres a magic I-win button. Your misdirecting completely the issue by comparing Mana Bar to Endurance Bar. The question is whether the Groups Cleric calls for a Med Break healing a Warrior before EITHER the cleric or knight, in a Group with a Cleric and Knight My claim is warrior group takes more breaks
Which likely isn't true. If knights are easier to tank it is because they can supplement the healer to top off their hit points. Taking that action bleeds mana at a rate so fast it is incredibly annoying (for paladins at least I can't speak for sks). In which case a knight cannot hit respite for mana and thus the group will need to rest as they get their mana back or need to long before a cleric or druid or shaman. I can't imagine a world where a properly geared priest actually ever has to med from healing. I have this image in my brain of a druid or shaman adding dps like abilities that force the issue. For shaman I doubt they ever run OOM and the cleric has little to do for spell dps that they can do while also healing. So no I don't think the warrior groups take more breaks, unless you are comparing an over achieving warrior to and under achieving knight. Paladin passive healing vs a single target is pretty pathetic in comparison to sks, so maybe you are just talking about sks with their epic, totc and mortal coil procs. But if you are referring to paladins, they need to active heal to assist the healer and in doing so bleed mana faster than most classes. side note: I'm ignoring content that can be stunned b/c it is too dependent on the situation and the all or none mechanic of the mitigation factor makes a mess of things for balance.
99% of the warriors miss being able to DW to tank even and yellow con mobs. There was a day when a warrior would ONLY toss on a shield to tank an end game boss. And a big part of that reason was DPS was being summoned every 10% of the boss health to deal with adds or other mechanics of the event. We tanked via DW or with a 2hander... AND IT WORKED! Now under Elidroth's power, warriors are stuck to a 1h weapon and a shield to tank and DPS EVERYTHING, no matter what the level range. To him if a warrior is tanking they NEED to have a shield on. All those AA he created that benefit a warrior that uses a shield are way out of wack... How the can you do more DPS with one weapon and a shield equipped? But the way Elidroth sees the world, that is perfectly normal. Warriors should have an AA line that is similar to the Shield Specialist line but instead of superior mitigation, it would be of superior avoidance, and parry capabilities, this would be when a warrior Dual Wields. A Dual Wielding Warrior should have far greater agility and the ability to parry over a Warrior holding a shield. And with this new AA line, warriors that are tanking even and yellow con mobs would see a balanced total damage taken when running a parse between the two setups. The shield setup increases mitigation, while the DW setup increases the avoidance, and parry. I still think a warrior should have to equip the shield when tanking red con raid bosses or even group named. So I am not totally against the warrior using a shield. A shield has its place, but it should not be considered the end all solution to tanking, not for a warrior. And don't get me started how horrible he is with the reuse time of our hate discs. I actually considered started playing again after I hung it up in Feb of this year, but I refuse to see any of my subscription money (4) accounts, and SC purchases go to someones salary that flat out refuses to listen to the 99% majority that play the class.
Side track. It's a fantasy game, anything is possible. But frankly if it was real world, 1H+Shield all the way. I still say the problem is they made the 3 weapons as Tank/Agro/DPS and you dont need an agro set up anymore and really need tank shield. So it should be changed to Heavy Tank / Medium Tank / Low Tank. With opposite order on DPS. ((Dual wield or 2her could be medium tank depending on how u do it)) Shiftee. There's always a million "Situations" you threw out stuns, but then specified proper healer. What if its a merc? Do you think Warrior is going to stay/up to par with a Knight? You threw out infinite mana shaman but didnt talk about fighting in AEs. I did some rubak leveling with a warrior and paladin as a shaman. I will say was far easier with a Paladin to supplement my group heals. In the end, it comes down to xp.
nah, your argument still falls short. A knight will run OOM far faster than a merc while they assist heal, especially b/c if you are assist healing you are gap healing in which case the merc will be spending less mana anyways. And you also just insinuated that a war and paladin in the same group were tanking at the same time so you were doing double duty. I've done this a good bit recently and the healer had no problems group healing and the war was taking less damage than I was but I was able to help them not have to tab to heal me as much, but I was def taking damage at a faster pace. I threw out stuns b/c if you go to a zone with yellow or red cons >100 or a zone with stun immune mobs the paladin stuns don't work and therefore can't be factored in to the total balance situation other than to say that paladins tank lower con stunnable mobs the best. But that is like tuning all 3 tanks around war def and you see how well that worked out.
That doesn't really address the issue. All three tanks need to be healed constantly, one problem with Warriors is they can't pick up the slack when they need to because they can't do it themselves. The other is that Knight survivability wins when healing frequency is more important than amount healed. SD just adds AC, which isn't an area where we're lacking. Just a quick breakdown: Item AC Aug AC Clicky AC Aura AC Powersource AC AA AC Long duration buff AC Short duration buff AC Disc AC (short duration) Disc AC (medium duration) <- this is what you propose improving. The mechanic of the disc is simply makes it limited in its contribution. Something that stacks with everything would be needed in order to be meaningful. We already have a plethora of Vie effects, so I proposed "skill damage -XXXX". Maybe you could throw some anti-spell stuff in there for good measure. Seems like you get it. Spread the word, homes.
My own personal dream is for Warriors to Proc on a Riposte a mini funeral dirge. Skill Damage 9% same slot 5 as funeral dirge so is still overwritten by funeral dirge.
With the staunch defense reference i was actually kinda thinking mini defensive or something of that sort that gives a passive benefit for the cost of endurance forcing you to have to maintain it and limits how long you can do it, but yeah /shrug just ideas.
I'm not sure why you think we have a Plethora of Vie effects, we have 1 on shield topple that not only overides SA if it is up, but the amount of it is a joke. Our other only miiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiildy useful vie is attached to our aggro ability 3: Mitigate Melee Damage by 50%, 7812 total, which is gone when a mob sneezes on us. Our only other vie is a reverse proc buff that procs a 10% 60k total vie that does absolutely nothing 99% of the time b/c it is the same % as SA. Those are all of the vies that we have unless you count the OMM clicky buff (which i use a lot even if it is pretty much a joke) Basalt Carapace - Phantasmic Reflex 2: Mitigate Melee Damage by 100%, 6000 total, and the New BP clicky which while nice compared to our worthless BPs from before, it is 1/4 as good as the bards Bp click. It would be nice if we actually had a single vie effect that was actually useful in any way b/c its something that the devs don't have to worry about stacking and they know only the highest one works. /votes for warriors getting the Knight ability Reprove - 9: Mitigate Melee Damage by 90%, 28072 total Max hits 3, recast 15 seconds.
Meh you can count me in that so called 1% really. I really don't care about DW anymore, I'm just glad that using a shield is viable now. I wouldn't mind having an increase in either DW or 2hander to be a little more dps than sword and board, but really, that's the least of my worries as a warrior, and its what we spent the majority of our time talking about in the IRC chat about warriors . I think the only way that 2h will be more dmg than 1h/shield atm, is if we either got some new AAs or they just gave warriors knight ratio 2handed weapons. I still think it would be close even with knight ratio 2handers, and again, dps is the least of my worries for the warrior class at the moment. The other option to fixing the warrior class is to give all warriors class change potions to Paladins. I would also be happy with that
I missed this post. I stopped raiding in October. Mostly because I had balancing working maximum hours, and being a full time student, and it stopped being worth it to put up with a corrupt leadership core in Realm of Insanity. I told Qulas and another officer my reasons for stopping raiding, and that was that. I was moved to "Retired" at that point, which is where you are basing your all-encompassing knowledge, as when anyone in a guild updates their magelo, my magelo is also updated. The week the expansion launched, a couple friends bounced from RoI, and joined their alt-guild on their mains. Figured I could be down with the casual struggle etc, and joined them. Been herp-derping around, and semi-enjoying the game. I've been in two zones total in the new expansion, and have seen zero raids. If you'd like, I can ask for a "Retired" rank in this guild, and you can keep going at me. Besides, Favre is one of the best Quarterbacks of all-time. I enjoy the comparison.
GRAAAH READY THE PITCHFORKS AND TORCHES! USE THEIR BOWS AS KINDLING While I'm no expert observer, warriors with a healer merc are able to solo *some* named in RoF (Shard's Landing in my experience) because they can tank and output steady dps, while paladins (myself) can tank, but just don't dish out enough before getting overpowered. But that's what they're best at and I agree I wish I saw more warriors with a two-hander or DW. I don't understand how or why sword and board is better than DW or two-handed damage. It only made sense that two-handers were slow but dealt heavy damage, two weapons dealt quicker strikes, and sword and shield offered balanced defense and offense. But today, sword and board trumps the others and it's been that way too long. Warriors aren't knights. lol I've tried killing named in Crystal Caverns, every time losing to > 15% of named health left. Warriors can kill the same named in the same situation. My mana just drains like crazy. My biggest issue is mob health, low dps, and my temporary spells don't last long enough. I'd love to see the Protection (HoTT + 10% mitigation) or maybe the Provocation (hate over time + mitigation) buffs last just 50% longer, because they're recourse effects and aren't affected by AA or focii that allows buffs to last longer. For example, the Stoic line (+ max HP) can last for over 5 minutes. I personally haven't played a high-end warrior so I don't know what stuff they use, but it's annoying to cast the same buff over and over again, which is (in my opinion) one of the reasons paladin mana drops so much. ***Disclaimer: I r noob and still learning mah class as I try to maximize mah potential.
the protective and provocation mitigation lines don't stack other than in visual buff form - The protective line 15% will always take precedence and the recourse from provocation is meaningless. Not only do they not stack but if you have a cleric merc the vie buff they cast on you is the same % as the provocation line in which case you get nothing out of it even if you aren't using protective. It was brought up in beta for the billionth time and nothing was done about it. If your problem is solo killing named mobs with a merc then I'm sorry but that is first world problems. We aren't designed for that unless incredibly overgeared such that minimal assist healing is required. recasting ward over and over is part of the mana problem but not the sole cause, the HPs degrade on stoic line so increasing the duration messes up the functionality of the spell. As of this chat elidroth was going to speak to aristo about increasing the duration of preservation since the hit counters are the limiting factor.
you do realize things can't proc off a riposte right? If not for hard coding or for the intentional purpose of limiting such an if/then situation, riposte slays and sk leech effects are bad enough lets not add to it.
It all depends on how you use them. Yes, they're completely overpowered for SK's/Paladins, and it's nice that you are allowed to keep them. If they had done it right they would have been DOTs, Heals over Time and Taps over Time. Presto, no scaling with amount of mobs.
slay is a fixed % of all swings which is why riposte counts and we all know how leech effects work. slay as a dot lol ok. It could have been changed to a backstab/bane strike mechanic a long time ago and that would have solved it. But then again that wouldn't give warriors a reason to be mad and we all know you can't go having that. If they can't blame their inadequacies on the knights who else can they blame?
It might take code to allow it to specifically proc off a Ripo for a warrior. But not like Finishing Blow wasnt originally coded to a class either. Still Did you even read what I wrote? I would proc a 1/2 strength Funeral Dirge. Funeral Dirge doesnt directly do damage. Makes the mob take more damage when its hit. That wouldn't allow a warrior to suddenly during furious finish off SK like swarms. No healing = if it doesnt die during the ripo phase a problem. What it would do is give a group with warrior a fair amount of more dps than same group with a knight. DPS balanced against Utility the knight brings. And please belittle the utility angle of pulling to surviving a wipe to group cures, etc. But the bonus is it would do a ton of good for Middle Level guilds who have 1-3 bards compared to the guilds like mine who field 6+. Max burn would be unaffected because chained Funeral Dirges would overwrite. But for guilds who cant use that many, they wouldnt be as far behind. If they can't code a proc. They could try for a Ripo Modifier that only applied when Sword/Boarding. In another words, wouldnt help Furious Train because your still bettter with a large 2Her there. But you get the personal DPS boost that while tanking a Warrior = DPS Class. Though without Super Ripos warriors can't compete with DPS classes
There are crappy Warrior ones with low hit limits + low DMG limit + very short duration. AKA all 3 limits = full of fail. However, you don't mention Cleric Vies, plus Enchanter runes, etc... catch my drift? In addition, recently the question was raised whether any of these stack with Phalanx/Defensive at all... I still need to run some parses on that. We should look for things that are additive or unique. I proposed a parry buff in the other thread. Vie/Shining/Rune = long duration, no hit limit, damage limit Flash of Anger = short duration, no hit limit, no damage limit Proposed parry buff = medium duration, hit limit, no damage limit Defensive procs are what youre looking for. Dirge sounds too much like ADPS, leave that to Bards. We're tanks.
[quote="Dre ........................ [/quote] Yes I listed every single one that we personally can use (basically all 100% useless). So that leaves us with only a 10% Vie base with SA. 10% at all times, that is basically all we have. While the 10% wouldn't be used while we used a Reprove ability for the next 3 hits, we could basically stop all incoming melee damage for the next 3 hits, buying healers a couple of more seconds to get that next heal to land. You do realize that both of the knight defensive discs are Vie based right? So that means they get even less out of Reprove than we would since their vie base while they are tanking is either 25% or 35%. I really don't comprehend how you don't understand that Reprove would be extremely meaningful compared to our current tools of flash if its up, or die if its not. We have asked the devs for an Aegis type ability in the past and they shot us down, though that did not come up this year. If I could have an Aegis or a Reprove, of course i would pick the Aegis ability, but you have to remember you have to sell this to the devs, and which one do you think they might actually consider. The one that is already in place and has been for knights for a long time that all they would have to do is add warrior to the usable classes, or an upwards scaling ability that they would have to create from nothing. It blows my mind that I'm actually arguing this with someone that plays a warrior. The only person I thought i might have to convince on this would be a knight. Though most knights, in my guild at least (RoI), know how terrible the warrior class is at the moment compared to them b/c they know how to use their classes to their full potential. The warrior class's potential cap is so much lower than knights it makes me sick.
"I really don't comprehend how you don't understand that Reprove would be extremely meaningful. It blows my mind that I'm actually arguing this with someone that plays a warrior" Sorry, looks like my quote formatting broke. We're arguing in circles and cluttering up the thread. Shoot me a PM if you want. Like I said in the other thread, our mitigation abilities need to be better than those who can heal themselves. I think the Reprove concept would need a massively upgraded counter/duration in order to be meaningful to Warriors.
