Using socials instead of rebinds- sue me

Discussion in 'Melee' started by ryokoryu, Mar 29, 2021.

  1. Niskin Clockwork Arguer


    Well, considering where we are now, that 3rd party programs can read the EQ client's memory and send commands, or even inject data into it, it's a huge risk. I don't know the full story on how people are accessing PoK on TLP's before PoP opens, but it means they are doing more than sending mouse/keyboard commands to the client. So DPG has to be very careful about the line between what the client can be trusted to handle, even if it would help performance.

    AFAIK when you hit a social, those actions are taken by the client. It doesn't send the social to the server, as the social isn't even saved server side to begin with. Your client executes the social commands, just like if you were clicking single commands one by one. That's safe, and just as safe as having the server do it, because in the end the client can only do things you could do, and the server will only allow things it expects you to be able to do.

    So while a potential exploiter could probably implement a much more effective macro/social/mash-key using a 3rd party program, it couldn't do anything the client couldn't already do if it was coded perfectly. The server is the gate-keeper, but even now it's not the perfect gate-keeper, because there are warp hacks and such.

    If they blur that line too much, the potential for exploiting becomes much greater, and that's a big risk.
    Skuz likes this.
  2. MasterMagnus The Oracle of AllHigh

    What I believe to be the case:
    -Any limit the client would put on how often you can make a request of the server would be easily circumvented to no limit whatsoever.
    -The server must always acknowledge that any request is allowed to be executed at that moment, within the game timing framework.
    -It's possible this is done at the incoming network level, only process the first x number of requests per connection.
    -Whether you send your allowed limit of requests per second all in 1-2 milliseconds, or spread out over that one second, it's going to process those requests each in it's own allowed time within the game timing framework. No problem there, except....
    -In the case of pushing the max, and probably with a key repeater just spamming requests the whole time, it becomes a network traffic issue. The network filter probably works quite efficiently, and has restricted much 'timing based cheating' over the years. But more is more.

    There are many ways you can do what no human can do just using Windows settings, which is the 'first party', so no third party required.

    You add on programmable keyboards and mice that can do all sorts of things no human can do, and it all just looks like legit user clicked that themselves.

    I use my 'mmo gaming mouse' to click the 8 key wait 2.5 seconds and click the 9 key. The whole thing waits 54 seconds and repeats.

    But I could easily program it to hold down 12 repeating keys all at the same time, and crank up the repeat rate in windows.

    I'm sure nobody has all 12 hotkeys set to different spams, and just spews that out. But it's easily possible in a way that is absolutely something they would never 'detect' in a meaningful way.

    I doubt they would be logging every request in that way. If they did, then somebody is pouring over a log of the commands at a millisecond level to see if that would be possible by a human or not?

    I think we all get the sense that they don't have any automated tools to detect that.
  3. Skuz Berserker Logic: Kill everything.

    Well as part of an overhaul the actual quantity of abilities could get trimmed down & made more impactful, kind of a melee consolidation but partnered with a shift away from mashing 1 key to something a tad more cerebral and reduction in lag could be a solid end result - with how bad the lag is there has to be some radical options on the table eventually.

    Now I am not suggestion my solution would be the best & it for sure is not the only possible way to deal with it, but that was me shooting from the hip on one possibility I came up with since I don't think it's fair to be as critical as I am being without spending at least a little time in coming up with some possible ways to improve things..

    That's one very simple solution, I was aiming for something that required a little bit more grey-matter to open up a little more room for skill-play since my main criticism is how brainless the current mashing style is right now.
    Something that has a builder & some reaction-play (nothing too demanding given we still have a laggy ecosystem) but which has a nice payoff for playing with a little skill/timing rather than just fire & forget type stuff.

    Could be a reformative half-way house of sorts as a point between the current system & something more evolved.

    But if the design intent is for these abilities to be constantly cycled brainlessly we may as well just auto-skill them, if not then lets make them a bit less brainless than they have become & give a ladder of payoffs for several degrees of skilful use of them through a better design.
  4. Niskin Clockwork Arguer

    Yeah, I wasn't necessarily disagreeing with you Skuz. Suggestions are good. I only commented because I actually played DAoC in the last year so I had some experience with that style of managing abilities. I didn't like the chained abilities back when it came out, but I got more use to it this time around. With that said, some of their stuff triggers off of parries or other combat spam related triggers and modern EQ combat spam moves way too fast for that. So while it could be interesting, the options are limited by the reality of what modern EQ is.

    I go back and forth on the player skill versus mindless spamming debate. Sometimes having to know which buttons to hit when is fun, other times it's frustrating. Playing on Agnarr, and boxing a Paladin and Bard, it's enough to remember to Kick on the Bard, Bash/Taunt/Disarm on 1 key on the Paladin and still watch the countdown on Yaulp, while remembering to heal or make sure the mob is snared when it gets close to 20%. Boxing is kind of an EQ thing now, so it has to be taken into consideration. On live with my Monk/Shaman combo, I found it hard to keep up with the mash key on the Monk and still do much of anything with the Shaman. But that was on one PC. Truebox has me loving the separate input devices, so next time around it may be easier to handle.

    There is so much about EQ that is expectation at this point, and that limits how much they can change without upsetting people or breaking playstyles. Maybe that needs to happen, but not if it leads to a lot of people quitting and not bringing in more new people. So really we go back to, do we need all these abilities? And if so, can we have better options for firing them? Do we only have these abilities because the existence of AA's means we constantly get new lines? We all certainly love AA's, so that should stay. Maybe some things could be passive additions to existing active lines. Take 7 actives down to 3 actives that perform 7 things across them. You still get the AA's, you still chase them, but you press less buttons.

    It's not something easy to solve, but ideas are good, as is understanding why we have things and how they could be best utilized.
    Skuz likes this.
  5. Niskin Clockwork Arguer


    Going to quote myself here because I learned something yesterday that I wasn't aware of when I made this post. There was a change in 2019, something to do with spell cooldown issues when using a mash key. That change unexpectedly changed how mash keys work for disc's, AA's, and such.

    Previous to the change, pressing the mash key would fire one ability, starting from the left-most hot key on the hot bar. After the change, pressing the mash key would fire all abilities tied to the mash key at once. I had only been using a mash key on a Cleric since I came back, so I didn't realize this or look into it until I played my Monk yesterday.

    This is similar to my quoted suggestion, which basically makes it unnecessary. However I want to mention that there are up and down sides to this change. It means less pressing of the mash key, huge yay, thank you, etcetera. However it means no fine control over the mash key without breaking it into multiple mash keys. If I want to go slow and only use the first few abilities, to conserve stamina or just because they aren't all necessary, I can't. It also limits what I might put on the bar, for example single-target, long re-use abilities that could get wasted easily.

    Not a huge deal, just something that is important to know. I am working on tuning the mash key for the Monk, and socials for his burns. It's good to have both options so they can be used where most appropriate.
  6. Celestian Elder

    Can you explain what you mean "binding them all to one key" ? I've only ever used socials or a direct bind to a single ability on a single button.

    Apologies if this is common knowledge, I've not played recently :) I did read various threads on macros but did not see anyone else explain this topic either (or they might have called it something else?).
  7. Cadira Augur

    Absolutely.

    If you go into your options, keys tab, and choose a hotbar that you don't use for anything from the drop down box (perhaps hotbar 11 for example), you can set each hotbar button to the same key to execute whatever is on each hotkey. You could use the W key for example. So all keys on that hotbar activate with pressing the W key. You then put an array of discs, spells, aas, whatever in order to activate in that order each time you press the W key on hotbar 11. For spells exclusively, you can choose spell casting in the drop down box and make each spell gem from say, 1 through 5 activate with the W key, and put your spell dps or heal weave in that order and each time you press the W key it'll cast them from top down. If one is on cool down it'll cast the next one in line.
    Stormblight and Celestian like this.

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