Useless Combat abilities?

Discussion in 'Melee' started by Poyzen Frawg, Apr 28, 2018.

  1. Poyzen Frawg Augur

    Rogue "Twisted Chance". Used for every burn... but wait a second there. Its a level 65 ability.

    Shrouding speed is level 106!!!! Boom! Same timer, and same (essentially) re-use time.

    So why is TC better DPS? Or is it? Is this intended? If so .... Shrouding Speed is USELESS. Right?
  2. DaciksBB Elder

    Counterstrike Discipline and Nine Breathes
  3. Dropfast Augur

    Welcome to the world of pure melee :( All 4 of the pure melee have this glaring problem. I don't think the Devs realize how much of an issue it really is. I've tried to get them to move a few abilities around each year in beta but they are always ignored.

    About half of everything new they make goes to waste all because they put it on a bad timer. As pure melee we already get half as many upgrades as casters, then throw in the timer problem and we lose another half. It really sucks.

    Even more sad is that they could improve all 4 classes right now with very little effort. Just swapping around a few abilities / timers would suddenly make a few useless things, useful again. I know monks even have an empty timer with nothing on it! Meanwhile we have new stuff we can never use because it's on the same timer as something much better. /boggle I mean, what's the point of making new things every year for them to NEVER be used. Such a waste of development time.

    It's been a year or 2 since I looked at the monk stuff hard but I use to have a list made up of fast easy swaps that would solve much of this problem. But after like 5+ years of being ignored I gave up and quit wasting my time making up these lists. I would do it again if I knew it would actually get looked at and addressed.

    Another glaring problem is not EVER getting upgrades to super old discs. Like the monk's speed focus disc. While I understand it is still awesome to this day, their is still not a single good reason they couldn't have made a very small upgrade to it by now. It doesn't have to be much at all, just add a tiny Mod to it or something! The fact that pure melee are still using discs from levels 50-90's is mind blowing. ALL of them should have been upgraded by now. Even if it's just a 1% upgrade, I'd be fine with that.

    I not trying to bash the Devs really, so sorry if it came off that way but one can get rather bitter after countless years of being ignored. This is not a call for huge dps improvements either. This is about discs being 100% useless and silly old discs never getting even a super small improvements. It would go a long way to making melee happy.
  4. Monkman Augur

    Shaded step and Eye of the storm along with everything Drop said
  5. segap Augur


    Shrouding Speed is level 102, and yes, it's very useless for several reasons. The two biggies are: 1) Re-use is much longer on Shrouded Speed 2) We already have several other sources of the hh effect so it doesn't stack with/complement other abilities/adps well. All these were brought up in TBM beta and ignored like all spell/disc feedback is. I'm actually shocked we didn't get a just as worthless upgrade for it at 107 in RoS. Rogues have some other annoying shared timer issues as well. Monks are probably the worst for such things.

    The fact that most melee are still using level 55-65 discs for burns just goes to show how short sighted development was back then. They made some very powerful abilities that infinitely scale. They had no idea the game would be alive 15 years later. New discs are designed as fixed boosts that they can give us perpetual upgrades of an increment for. Honestly, I have no problem using the old things. It's really no different other than saving us having to wait our turn on rk III scrolls. We do get occasional upgrades to those old discs through AA to extend duration/decrease re-use. It's not like they've been completely stagnated and never upgraded.
  6. Derka Augur

    Are beastlords still swapping on the UF raid BP to use the level 69 Empathic Fury?
  7. Hickers Elder

    Umm...? Use both of these all the time, very useful. Only thing I would say is, it makes no sense why they share a timer. One is a defensive disc, the other is a damage disc, why link them?

    Useless AA's from a monk perspective:

    Hold the Line (reduces DPS, no thanks)
    Ton Po's Stance (whole other thread out there on why this sucks at the moment)
    Arguably all 3 Spires (seem to make no difference)

    Useless Discs:

    Technique of the Celestial Fist (reduces DPS, no thanks)
    Hiatus (reduces DPS, no thanks)
    Void Body (doesn't do anything noticeable)
    Xianzu_Monk_Tunare likes this.
  8. Niskin Augur

    I've had some success using Technique of the Celestial Fist to get out of a low endurance situation. It's only like a 10% damage reduction, sometimes I'll pop it while I'm running Dicho (if I'm not doing an actual burn). I know we can just keep clicking Breather, but I hate being stuck in that cycle all the time.

    It's not hugely useful, but it works.
  9. Symbius Augur

    It's a 25% crit reduction as well. Pairing it with anything would seem to be a waste because of that alone.
  10. Niskin Augur


    You're not wrong, but it's a tougher value calculation than just how it affects damage output. If I pop TotCF and use very few abilities during the duration, I can increase my endurance by about 15-20% points. Again, with Breather, why bother? But what if I'm capped at 20% from Breather and have a named mob coming up?

    If there's a trash mob or two to go before fighting it, that's a good time to pop TotCF. I'd rather have more endurance to burn on the named and still be able to fight the trash mobs rather than waiting out the timer and sitting for endurance, skipping one or both mobs. If it's still up when the named fight starts, it's ok because it can be clicked off, or it may fade while I'm waiting for solid aggro to be established before I burn. So I feel it has some utility, even if it's normally less useful.

    As far as using it with Dicho, it wasn't so much a choice of pairing them, as much as determining when it would have the least impact on what I was doing. I'm generally always fighting group mobs, and abilities like Dicho, Infusion of Thunder, and Focused Destructive Force last longer than one mob but barely long enough to use on a second one in any capacity. Since I want to use those endurance free abilities, and they are already wasted a bit at the end, that makes for a good time to run TotCF.

    Personally it just grinds on me to be stuck in the 0-20% endurance range from Breather. I'm glad I have the ability, it's a great one, but eventually I just have to sit and refill my endurance. Anything that minimizes the need for that is good with me.
  11. DaciksBB Elder

    too bad fade and breather is no longer an option in some raids, even with res effects I get a decent amount of endurance back (especially with fierce eye or if I decide to pop first spire)-I just wish that it didn't overwrite zan fi
    Brohg likes this.
  12. Dropfast Augur

    As for the OP, I feel for you. I can't lie I was a little miffed after I heard Rog was getting a version of our speed disc but then I thought, Meh they can use all the help they can get. Then I heard about the timer issue and couldn't help but LOL. That was an upgrade they really needed but was completely ruined just by putting it on a bad timer :( .

    As for Endo, I'm not so worried about that. It does really suck that Rest was nerfed so hard and these new raids won't allow anyone to be OOC but for a few secs. (If your lucky) TotCF should have been like the zerker version but as usual monks got the bad end of the stick on that one.

    But back to the real issue at hand! Any devs out their willing to listen and take some these issues under consideration? If so, let us know so I can make up my list again!
  13. Repthor Augur

    its not a pure melee issue only

    every class is riddled with thease stuff. same ability timer/same spell group/ diffrent day same problem
    fransisco likes this.
  14. Ashten-Prexus Journeyman

    What is a monk
  15. Angre Augur

    Zerkers - Disconcerting Discipline!

    This used to be a really good disc to use, but after the nerf, I try to use it throughout my burn sequences and I get error messages saying I can't use it at this time, and this happens often.

    I've read the discipline's description, and cannot find a problem that would cause it not to activate when I click it. I have NO OTHER disciplines running when I click it.

    What am I missing?

    Zerker's suffer from timer issues, and older disciplines being better than the new one meant to replace them, as well. Its stupid and embarrassing explaining to a new Zerker that his level 86 discipline is better than his 106 discipline.

    You Dev's should play a Zerker sometime and see for yourself.

    It's kind of chewed up!
  16. Maddielyn New Member

    There is where the problem lies, the Dev's DONT play the game, they are dissassociated with it, hince why they are horrible at balancing classes aka they nerf way to far to the point its useless etc. Good point, shaman dot nerfs (yes they were needed but again dev's don't know how to balance properly nerf they just completely ruin a class instead). And yes level 110 still using fellstrike...brutal onslaught and offensive discpline...its rather disheartening. But the question is this really, How do they improve upon these disc without making us OP. I mean a lot of these sticks are pretty solid % values which means they scale to levels. Maybe increased duration? maybe slightly higher % of damage crit chance etc etc (depending on class). You are right the ability timers are out of whack considerably. The endurance issue is real, at least for wars cause our howl doesn't remove raid boss agro. So Hiatus is 90% of the time worthless on raids. I've had to literally gate out...use hiatus and have to re banner in many times cause of it. I think they need to remove the 'out of combat' factor in Hiatus but that just me I guess. (shrugs) and any mana class that says that makes melee OP, nope, you guys can cast your harvest/canni/whatever in combat, and HIATUS has a long CD so its not like we are spamming it every minute....But the question is how do we suggest fixes to them to make Newer disc that succeed the old ones? What could replace Brutal onslaught or fellstrike/mighty strike etc and not be "OP".
  17. Brohg Augur

    I find your use of Hiatus as a warrior highly suspect. Also that you have endurance issues at all, as a warrior, makes me think you're doing something wrong? Functionless Knuckle spam or CV/Field on a mash button?
  18. MaddielynBlackStar Lorekeeper

    When you die on raids you get raid rest timer, and endurance regen currently sucks in the game, so having things such as hiatus are necessity to recover quickly and get back into the fight, many other classes have an ability to restore mana while in combat, melee classes do not. For as mashing I mash a lot of keys at once 1-4 has full lines of commands, this is how I keep agro, as unfortunately many classes don't do the best at agro management sometimes you have to over push to compensate for this...Its part of 'dealing with it' mentality. Unfortunately it also leads to having to really eat endurance a lot. And disco also eats a lot of endurance, so does many things, so does having to spam slander.
  19. Brohg Augur

    I find warrior endurance needs are very low. I consider it a core class feature, that we're able to be so close to full fighting power so quickly after dying thanks to that low resource need. I use Breather, which doesn't prevent meleeing, and has half the cooldown time. I recommend swapping that ability.
    Thunderkiks likes this.
  20. MaddielynBlackStar Lorekeeper

    Well I am using an AA clicky passive that degens endurance :p like 14 a tick but gives really high hp regen value so that never helps I guess.

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