Unbalanced.

Plus if you box you never have to meet:

My previous comment was not directed at your suggestion specifically, just speaking to the general idea that we should be trying to encourage socialization to any greater extent. (And for the record I was also being a bit facetious; I don't really think that 98% of players don't want to group or that devs should waste time making the changes I suggested.)

But what I think you're missing is that the people who want that level of socialization can, and for the most part do, already do so. If people don't want to socialize, or already have enough friends that they're not looking for more, you will never make them.

What you really want is for the people who don't currently want to group to now want to group. That might be possible with the right incentives, but it's not really socialization. While you might not ruin anyone's fun, keep in mind that the less incentive you provide the less impact it will have. And everything is relative; a bonus for you is a penalty from the other direction. Too small and you don't accomplish much. Too large and you do start ruining things for others.

Ok here's just my 2cp on this, I think you put it very well straight forward.

As to the degree and level that people will group or even branch out, once a person is set in thier ways it is usually extremely hard for the person to see any other viewpoint. I will admit that I box, only because I didn't like sitting around (especially when I would be on my cleric) LFG and not getting to really play - the bonus is that I also get to play alongside my wife. Normally that means at very least we have 3 in our group, but this does not mean that we will not group with others. Frankly I enjoy the interaction when it happens, and we do not turn down the chance to be in a live group (even if it means dropping one of my boxed toons) in order to continue playing by ourselves.

The is however a major problem with offering more and more incentives to encourage grouping more often. With the increase of incentives, UNLESS (wanted to be specific about this) the incentives are applied universally across the group, you run more of a risk to finding yourself in one of those types of groups where everything has to be catered to one person. Also with the increased incentives, especially concerning loot, you run more of a risk with having to deal with Ninja Looters.

So while I agree with what you said, I think that there is just as much that can happen to make this an adverse solution, rather than a optimal solution. It really does come back down to balance in the long run, the problem with finding balance now is how to fix the issues without having to perform major overhauls.

If you look very closely at the reflection on the glass you can see Gragas in what looks to be a rocking chair.

LOL, man you crack me up with these images you find.

I cannot agree on that, we always have a real cleric in our group and often a cleric merc just to help our real cleric to relax some. But we would never choose a merc over our cleric mate and there is one simple reason, our player friend has a brain and acts if he has one, he reacts much more detailed to situations and in high level group content with only one merc cleric playing is always on the edge, as soon as somehting unexpected happens, like a small train etc. or tank dies in the middle of a battle your merc doesn't do as long as in combat. Our player friend does do something, he rezzes in between he is able to run back in a short time etc. etc. That is also valid for all other classes.

This sounds good on paper, but it's simply not true. I'm in a large guild and almost everyone boxes, the only socialization going on is in guild chat. Raids once a week is about as social as it gets. Why do they box? Because they can. If they couldn't, they would be LFG, just like they used to.

That's great and all, but I can't remember the last time I saw anybody asking for a real cleric in chat.

I can't really remember the last time I heard anyone asking for a specific class in chat other than for buffs or teleports or tradeskills.

It's important to recognize the distinction between socializing and grouping. You don't need a group to socialize and you don't need to socialize to group.

What I meant by that comment is that for the most part, the people out there playing specifically to interact with other people, make friends, etc., are already doing it. The ones who want to but aren't either just aren't any good at it, or came to the party too late and can't find a dance partner. The rest, like your guild apparently, do not want to socialize (at least no more than they already do).

There's not some group of players out there saying to themselves, "Man, I really wish I could make some friends, but I get such a similar level of reward with my mercs/boxes that it's just impossible." Being able to box or use a merc does not make you unable to group. If anyone chooses the former it's because they prefer it.

As I said, you may be able to change that preference (for some at least). But in trying you also may end up doing more harm than good.

Well, I think the minorty of the people are playing in pick up groups. I for my part did not play in any pick up group for years and years, I simply hate them, I cannot remember being in one pick up group without having at least one weird person inside that acts crazy. Most people I know do have a fixed group with same people through the years, people have appointments to group etc. I see all the time people asking in guild channel for others helping on tasks and missions.

Most of the time you just see looking for tank, or looking for dps, rarely you get a specific bard or enchanter request. I don't know how many years it's been since I have seen a Looking for healer request before mercs it was always looking for cleric(cause shaman and druids couldn't do the job) after mercs nothing for healers.

this is a Pandora box kind of thing... the subject never goes away. The game will always be unbalanced in some way. Last I heard and seen Sony still doesnt allow Mercs in raids. Which IMHO is a good thing. From what Ive seen, there are plenty of classes raiding, including the listed cleric, war, rogue and wiz.

The point of mercs is to help level you up, especially when you cant find a quick group. And as one of the old timers, started 3 months after eq was released back in the days of Verant, I have no patience to LFG anymore and 99% of the time people dont want to do what you want or need to do. So, yes, mercs are needed. (Im certain theres an archived thread complaining how they cant get anything done and wished there were some kind of "For-Hire" system)

*puts the stick down and walks away from the already dead horse.*

I've watched my guildmates over the double exp weekend, majority of people were playing alts, I saw quite a few achievements from different members getting over 10K aa achievements on these alts. Over the last few months I have seen a lot of the guild working on Tradeskills for their shawls, doing slayer achievement. A lot of them, just log in raid and logout again until the next raid.

I think the main lack of groups is the lack of need for exp.

This was part of the original problem. Clerics had a strangle hold on almost all content. There were three tank classes that could do the job, multiple DPS classes, multiple pulling classes, and then one real healer. They strengthened Druids and Shaman, which is what should have been done a long, long time ago. There still was not enough player support so they introduced the most sought after class types as healer and tank mercs.

If you sit in chat for three hours and see one hundred requests for a cleric, and not much else there is a serious issue. I personally don't see requests anymore for any class type at all.

So you're saying even your guild members find boxing more enjoyable than grouping?

And you want Sony to deliberately reduce their enjoyment by forcing them to look for groups?

Is that right, or did you mean something different with that post?

Pretty much. Its not overly difficult to finish up content and max out AA with staggered release. After that it is alts or do something else with the free time.

I meant neither. I imagine they do it because it gives them more independence/efficiency, but that does not mean more enjoyable. The best times I have had in EQ involved pickup groups with people I knew slightly or not at all. When they started playing, they were not boxing. There were no onscreen instructions telling them they needed 2 or 3 accounts to play EQ, they were forced to do it because finding a group was too hard.

And I don't want to force anybody to do anything. I want a server where people who prefer the LFG game can go play. I have no interest in playing solo EQ, there are plenty of other games that can give me that.

The problem comes down with the aggregation of players and their time zones. There aren't people playing this game 24/7 looking to edge out that 1 extra delay on a weapon. The mercenaries offered up a better game play experience for classes that wanted to solo more often, and healers who wanted to have more time spent in areas they deemed less problematic.

I agree with the assessment about mediocre clerics and that Complete Heal created a sort of dynastic, myopia that took many years to change. A person of mediocre skill could build a cleric from 1-50's years ago and get into a top end guild when clerics retired. The problem came as the game progressed into Planes of Power that more clerics were required to stay longer and have attention to chaining one spell over and over. This also led to increased burn out, and really bad clerics becoming a "necessity." It also edged out druids as a healing class for sometime. The death mechanics meant that while a paladin was a great asset, it meant that other support classes such as a necromancer requiring a gem held the game back. While I agree with the out of combat rez effects we have to look at the interlocking original game wasn't thought out well and was built ad hoc. Complete Heal and 96% rez were too important to maintain the game. That was a failure in game design, and how players became in part elitist over that at worst as well as allowing mediocrity to become the norm was a blight to the class.

One of the founding arguments against cleric monopoly was the lack of healthy diversity by staggering effective abilities to force players to find optimal class combinations from the pool. One stop shop healing and buffing with the healing class has improved the comfort level to allow players to explore regions, as well as having a 24/7 McHealer available allows people with unsteady play times to play the game.

I have no problem with the extinction of purposely lazy or extremely mediocre clerics in favor of great druids and shamans. The solo button smashing led to high burn out, and with unsympathetic guild drama drove some great people out of guilds. Most of us have experienced this who have either played the class in the prime monopoly period or had friends leave the game out of spite and loss of fun.

Mercenaries gave options, but the failure to adapt classes to function together more effectively mechanically is a design problem as well as a player advertising problem by saying their preferences. However, the LFG timer has been a decaying resource since LDoN, when we had the highest server populations, towards the "death of LFG" is a problem with staggering player base and the inability to forge groups with so many options that people find projects to direct their time more forcefully.

It's a problem of time zones, population, and mechanics. "Moloing" is an adaptation to population and inherent bad design of the game that grew more and more excessive with each passing year. There were points of increased design focus, however the inherent problems are what the pillars were in the original game and the lack inherent mechanical interaction to allow for more stylized game play that a more advanced MMO has allowed for.

The "LFG times" were stagnant for specific classes such as DPS or low end tanks as far back as Planes of Power. I remember talking with these people, how miserable they were with the game. Some quit, others pressed on with their guild by getting a play group started, or just starting tradeskills to eat up LFG time. I believe the root cause of this is a socio-technical problem that cannot be solved.

It can be alleviated some what with allowing more easily the ability to have multiple characters that can adventure. So things such as shared flags between characters, shared achievement mechanics, or transferring XP between different characters are other ways to increase replayability. This also means that some old content has to be fixed ranging from BIC limitations or faction standards like with DoN.

Other games allow people to have multiple characters, Everquest time sinks are cumulative and become exhaustive even with willing participation from friends and allies. As for strong characters who have total devotion to max everything out are powerfully strong characters, at that time also presents another problem historically in the catch up phase between the raider and the casual. With far greater item design, the game has been able to keep the game afloat much longer along with several changes to back end game changes.

But most of these problems can be traced back to The Vision. Long downtime, an exhaustive world, and time sinks all go around the original design of the game. Which if you follow Everquest Next seems to look more towards customizable sand box features. Everquest 2 started with player housing, while Everquest has since tacked on several mechanics and services that follows a different product model than originally designed. Which is all well, but Everquest's core design is showing it's age and limitations.

These can be overcome, but they must be built in with looking at instead class balance and looking at it from a class stacking stance where different classes working in conjunction together offer different cost-benefits. The synergy between unallied and allied classes to be addressed is a core towards having players work better together. Which would also mean applying additional replay value through allowing more access with alternative characters, which it isn't unheard of in other games to have more than one main. Yet, this comes also at a question what time it should take to develop a character as you would have a fluctuating core of raiders. In other games this is addressed by having players be able to flex around their classes, but this is not integral to Everquest's design nor is dual classing a good concept.

One idea that has been pointed out was an "associate" or "sidekick" system where players of lower level could play with higher level characters. This was done with City of Heroes and City of Villains respectively some years ago. There was also the idea of XP sharing fellowship system more complex than presented today. Altogether, I do not believe that the resources are there necessarily to create a "renewed interest" to bring in new players. The core is going to be looking at how players have adapted to the new world order, and looking at ways to work with other characters more often outside of relational.

Most classes have fond memories of Planes of Power. But if you played a healer on those raids it wasn't fun. The only difference between any raid was what wall you hid behind. I think it caused more clerics to quit(by number not percentage) than the introduction of OP cleric mercs and underpowered tank mercs. I would be in channel with these players and it was normal on a time raid to lose 2 or 3 people a night to them falling asleep at the keyboard.

The only thing that I can think for a non-healer class to compare it to was the Demi-Plane Zi-Thuli spawn clears. Where you had 1 group of people pulling the trash down to spawn Zi-Thuli while the rest of the raid tried really hard to just stay awake at the zone in spot. We would lose some players to falling asleep at the keyboards and others to them just /exiting out. That kind of raid design slaughtered the mid-teir raid guilds, If your guild didn't raid on back to back nights you couldn't hold a lock-out so every night you raided it was the same one or two events over and over and over again.

As annoying as I find the more current raid events with the non-stop healer fear/stun/silences going on. It isn't nearly as boring as the old raids.

I miss the old game world that many do. Yes there were always horrible group members and terrible outcomes.. but it was still more fun then sitting somewhere afk and killing things by yourself while listnening to children scream at each other in chat. THe game just no longer supports a strong group atmosphere shy of Raids..... I tried starting a Facebook group to get people back in the game and playing.. and at first it seemed to be going well.. with 10-15 players all low level working together.... but then people started to solo.. and create mages etc.... and before long only 1 or 2 would be on mass killing to level.. the others saw no real group atmosphere anymore and decided that EQ really was dead and gave up again..... This is a horrible flaw in the game... but one that I really dont see getting fixed.....