Two populations playing the same game

Really expansions should be linear in difficulty. flat out. easy at first then progressively harder.. same with raids.

btw, I know I don't speak for all raiders, but I like doing beta to figure things out. I like puzzles, and not everything being handed to me on a little blue plate; when there is no little blue text to click on, and you have to read all of the lore to figure out what to say to whom and when.
20 people standing around an NPC trying all sorts of words and phrases, then suddenly remembering reading some random piece of information and that having the right answer and you can go on.

I am thankful there are still folks like you around. The first four or five years of playing EQ was enough puzzle figuring for me. Eventually it wasn't something I was interested in any more. So I am glad folks like you are still out there doing it for folks like me can go to a fan site and get the info we need.

I still enjoy an occasional puzzling thing but it's just not a big draw for me anymore. Researching and finding the info others have figured out mostly satisfies my puzzle needs.

We've gone back and forth on this one. But what I think the real issue is that there are generally 2 websites open to the public that give any kind of walkthrough in regards to new expansions.....and that people rely on a walkthrough.

In MS, there's a write-up every year on progression from start to finish far sooner than Rorce is able to polish and post to the public his write-ups. Rorce et al does this free of charge. We make our own maps, another service not provided by the EQ game itself. Goodurden is good enough to share his finished product, which usually includes collection spawn points with the community at large. He does this free of charge as well. Beimeith makes a parser, and though we've had our differences, he does this free of charge.

There are many in the community that provide to the community....but we're not gonna spoon feed you.

I have

I started playing EQ in 1999 on Tallon Zek, and said it back then and still say it now. No PvE servers are competitive or competing against anyone. I love EQ, but find it funny when PvE players who enjoy great success beating A.I. act like they are hardcore. you aint. sorry.

How's that EQ PvP life bro?

And what is your point about what various people do for the game and the info they put out to the public? Something that has been going on the full 20 years of Everquest by various people over time. I mentioned just recently in another post that I appreciate the work all those who actually enjoy doing things like finding quest info and I will extend that to maps and such. It's great a great contribution to the game for players that has been done by many throughout the years. I remember my large folder of printed EQAtlas maps very fondly. Thank you to one and all who have done this through the years.

And if you ever do something like that for the players I will thank you as well because I really appreciate such things. Although people are the main reason I have run a guild and played eq non stop for almost 20 years having all those resources available helped too.

Yes and tell that to the majority of players who rely on the website for info. And yes MS does all sorts of intense research for the use of MS when they do beta. I would expect nothing less then the excellent work you guys do to keep your competitive edge. There is a reason you are always neck and neck for the top raiding guild spot in the game. Your guild works hard at being the best raid guild in Everquest and deserve all the kudos for it.

But.... the player base of MS cannot fund the continued running of Everquest. No matter how competitive and good your guild is at raiding you will not be able to keep DBG running Everquest on your own. Not gonna happen.

So instead of talking down to the more casual players the majority of who get their info either directly from those two websites or word of mouth from those who use the websites maybe you can find a way to be supportive of the casual gamers who help keep the game you enjoy being competitive in going with their subs and money they spend on the game. Because a lot of people rely on third party sources for their EQ info. And speaking for myself I appreciate having that info provided for me because I have no interest in figuring it all out for myself. If that makes me a bad person in your eyes I can live with that.

That's not the business model here. Its still the paradigm of roadblocks allow for less content to be developed if most players are stuck early on in the life cycle of an expansion. Especially if there is a level cap increase on the horizon, its easier to get away with. Quite a few players will have to wait until that cap increase to reach the end of the previous year's release. Keep in mind, this is a speculative assumption.

Just for kicks, one could suggest there could be an expansion in the future that is just 3 zones and the first one is almost impossible to get past, the next even harder and the last...well. Probably easy haha!

The info was out there....in the beta discussion threads. Sorry we didn’t broadcast it in every general channel for all to appreciate.

Yeah I had figured the same thing out. Put in roadblocks at the beginning so people spend the first half of their time getting through the early roadblock the the rest of their time on the other 80 percent of the content.

This was their answer to a rapidly diminishing about of content being created. In my mind it is a failure though and I think they realize that now; or I hope they do. The hard core players won't even notice the roadblock and the rest will bang their heads against it and get frustrated. I think in the end it will cost them expansions. A poorly received TBL could be the reason we are getting a level increase expansion now as I suspect those sell better.

It's ok I think you are really sincere in being sorry. Don't let it get you down at all. I just appreciate the open raids you guys do each week. You get to scope out talent and the rest of the players on the server get a chance to raid end game content. That is a great thing for players who don't want to be in a raid guild with all its pressure on excellence but still get a taste of raiding. For some they like the taste and provide a good source of recruits for raid guilds for others a taste is enough but greatly appreciated.

Thank you MS for running the open raids on Xegony every Saturday.

I wish there was a way to get everyone to understand that these two populations I talk about in the game can't rate or compare themselves to the other part of the population because they are really playing two different games. The reasons for playing and the parts of the game that give each group fun overlap and have similarities but are different.

Being in either group doesn't make you better then the other group. But maybe the problem is when each group judges the other on their own perspective on how to play the game. It is an easy mistake to fall into I think.

If raiders think of casuals as too lazy and casuals think raiders are too competitive they would both be wrong. Everquest and the way it has evolved including third party sites out there tries to straddle the line of making the game fun for both groups.

Maybe some need to feel their way is the right way to play and that makes the other side wrong. It can be exasperating when both sides can't see the game is made for both of them. This is not a game like Call of Duty that is purely competitive nor is it like some non competitive games like Minecraft.

Everquest is first and foremost (in my opinion) a game of shared experiences and social interactions. Whether those shared experiences are in a highly competitive environment or a less competitive environment the game brings people together to do things. Whether its running or being in a guild, grouping with friends, reaching for goals, or just helping each other out it is a shared experience game. And I know with boxing and mercs it seems less so but I think that is still what it is at it's heart.

How you attain those shared experiences in the game is up to you there isn't any wrong or right way as long as you are not doing something to the detriment of others (yeah I know there was the early years of toxic raid activity blocking progression etc though an argument can be made that that is also a valid way to play the game except it forces everyone involved to play that way).

This is a shared experience game let's all try to find a way to make it work for as many parts of the player population as possible.

P.S. and I am not anti competition. I think healthy competition in some things is good. Before I retired I was very competitive in my career including trying to be the best I could in my area of work and I enjoyed that. I love being competitive in shooter games. EQ is just more of a relaxation thing for me. There is still some competitiveness but not hard core. It's more of a people thing for me and a chance to keep my foot in people management by running a guild. But that doesn't mean others can't get their taste from competition from EQ. that is a completely valid way to play the game.

It’s not an us or them. Stop trying to divide the game as such. The devs have progressively gotten better at providing an experience worthwhile to everyone.

Corwyhn Lionheart said: ↑

“I wish there was a way to get everyone to understand that these two populations I talk about in the game can't rate or compare themselves to the other part of the population because they are really playing two different games. The reasons for playing and the parts of the game that give each group fun overlap and have similarities but are different.

Being in either group doesn't make you better then the other group. But maybe the problem is when each group judges the other on their own perspective on how to play the game. It is an easy mistake to fall into I think.”

Ummm that was what I just said that it isn't an us or them. I don't mean to be insulting at all but how can you paint what I am saying that way unless you are being intentionally obtuse? Just so you know acknowledging that there are two populations is not the same thing as pitting them against each other.

Progressively better.... maybe. Definitely a two steps forward one step back situation at the least. TBL was not a step forward in my opinion. In yours I am assuming it was. Which is okay. You will talk about it as a success and I will not. That is okay too. *shrug*,

You keep wanting to make this a you against me conversation and I don't think that is productive at all. I am not sure how you derive pleasure from either twisting my words or outright making stuff up but you have to stop treading the forum discussions as a competition between you and me. It's not nor is the Everquest population served by that.

Anyone out there please read what he quoted and then what he said and explain to me what he is talking about.

You just said two populations (separate but equal....that ring a bell in history for you?) cannot possibly understand the other aspect of the game. That was after insulting raiders and casuals alike.

The game is diverse...you can live in old content, do TLP, work tradeskills, quest, play a little or a lot....it’s not either or.

At this point all I can assume is you are just trolling. I never insulted either group. And calling two groups separate but equal isn't insulting its ummm saying they are equal. Nor is it pitting them against each other but simply acknowledging that they exist.

Brown V. Board of Education was 65 years ago, guess you didn’t get the memo.

LOL are you serious? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_v._Board_of_Education

You are trying to say the separate but equal thing applies here? Stop trying to WIN a discussion and just have one.

Are you seriously comparing anything at all in this forum discussion to segregation?

You titled your article “Two populations playing the same game”...
Your discussions on the topic are very much about a segregation of the game...
It’s easy to draw parallels.

I think discussions like these are good to have but we need to be careful when it becomes two people just talking at each other. It might be a good time to take a break from this thread guys.

There's a lot more than just two sorts of player and after reading through this thread I'm thinking that there doesn't need to be some sort of catering to a perceived "casual" as that could actually result in legitimate Casual V Raider tracks with everyone feeling obliged to take one or the other. Currently my play is pretty casual as I am focused on catching up on various achievements from the past. Have a "Raid Track" could quite conceivably make it more difficult for someone to change up what they are doing at the moment to get some more current high end content done