Two Kronos a month for Aradune

Discussion in 'Time Locked Progression Servers' started by pikken, Apr 11, 2020.

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  1. Xenich Elder

    My points are logically founded and self evident. I don't think you seem to understand what rationalizing means. It means to "bring in accordance with reason, to... make seem reasonable". That is, you are the one who is stretching, twisting, and forming your position to "make seem reasonable" when it is counter to the concept we are discussing.

    Krono's circumvents game play by allowing OUTSIDE game influence (ie real money) to gain IN-GAME accomplishments (ie money aquisition which allows for items to be bought, there by bypassing the game play required to gain the money).

    Your argument is invalid.

    Now you can argue that you are ok with this, that you subjectively think that people should be able to buy progression for whatever reason you want to justify, but... your attempt to twist the meaning of words, to ignore definitions, to ignore logic to make your argument? It is not merely invalid, it is asinine.

    Also, just because it has been happening doesn't validate it happening. Murder, stealing, etc... has been happening since the dawn of time, by your argument, we should just accept it and approve of it... you know.. cuz always happend.
  2. Xenich Elder

    Yep, I remember back then when Yantis (one of the first Plat/item sellers) was doing this. I also remember one guy on Stormhammer who was running 16 machines and ran raids in Sleepers Tomb for anyone who paid him cash to raid and let them loot items.

    You are right though, True Box is a meaningless concept, it is far too easy to circumvent their attempts to discern between legitimate "true boxing", that of VMs, or as you pointed out, it really doesn't hold anyway due to the fact that you can pick up an EQ capable mini-PC the size of a wallet and run multiple PCs with switches or various programs/split screen, etc...

    A No-box server would be easier to keep boxers off of than a "true box". Even as advanced as bot software is, you can tell a person running multiple toons extremely easy. It is near impossible to emulate natural behavior of multiple people playing.
  3. Skuz Augur

    What you accuse me of is the very thing you are doing yourself, yes you are using logic but you are being extremely selective of the criteria & ignoring some fundamental principles that should be factored in while doing so.

    Player A wants an item

    Player B kills a creature & has an item he doesn't want, asks if someone would like it & sells it to Player A.

    Objective - earn the item was met by player B, no content was avoided. That part of the equation you conveniently choose to ignore because you mistakenly believe that no player should access content that they didn't acquire for themselves, this is nonsense in the context of the game having a long history of players trading goods & services between them and it being a fundamental part of the designed gameplay.

    Krono serves but one purpose & that is to reduce the amount of cash being lost to third parties by the game developer, it doesn't allow something that wasn't possible before it - exchange of real world cash was happening before the Krono system was invented, there is no way to prevent it & retain a player economy, you either accept that a player economy exists in EverQuest & always has or you go play a single player RPG.

    People will trade using whatever means available to them.

    For your ridiculous & absolute definition of "avoiding content" the game would require that no items may be traded at all under any circumstances & that any kill of any creature would lock the loot only to those present when it was killed & who participated in the kill, a coding which is possible but is not used widely throughout the game.

    Trading items between players is an expressly allowed activity whether that is gear earned on a raid, in a group or solo someone went & obtained that item, or the platinum.

    You are trying to make yourself out as some logical & good intention player but you are simply being deliberately obtuse.
  4. Xenich Elder

    I am using proper logical argument, you are simply "rationalizing". That is, your argument does not follow proper logical format.

    A game exists within its own system. That is, you level, you earn money, etc... as you play within the game. It is you, the player that is required to go through these systems, to overcome the obstacles to reach your goal.

    Take for instance, making money. How do you obtain money through game play (ie playing the game)? You go out in the game world, kill mobs, harvest, etc... and then through such, you earn coin in game. This is playing the game.

    Now, Krono on the other hand is just a representation of real cash. It is a barter tool for real money trade. A game can exist without RMT, but RMT can not exist without the game. That is, RMT exploits the game to achieve its goals.

    So now we go back to our example. A person takes real money, then buys a Krono token. That person then goes into the game and trades that representation of real money for the effort, rewards, etc... that people got from "playing the game". That person then gains in-game money (which they didn't gain through game play) and then purchases items, resources, etc... to which they didn't earn with money they didn't earn. In fact... I can walk onto an EQ server, make a level 1 character, never playing the game and through real money, gain more money and items than many people (who do not cheat) who have been playing the game for months.

    Did I earn this playing the game? Nope.. I paid someone money that has nothing to do with game play to be given cheats to surpass the requirements of playing the game. It is important to note, as I already have ... that it doesn't matter if the game "allows it", it doesn't change the fact that they are allowing outside money irrelevant to the game to influence in game play.

    Now you may be ok with that, you may think that is normal play, and if you admit that, fine... we have no real argument other than you approve of such PTW to advance game play. If you accept that, you at least are honest, but claiming otherwise is not being honest, it is trying to avoid the reality of what is going on, it is avoiding the proper logic of the issue in order to proclaim your subjective acceptance of in game cheating as acceptable.

    Again, you can not deny this, your attempt to rationalize your position is illogical, it is invalid, it is not intelligent discourse.

    The facts are the facts and you may be able to stick your head in the sand, but it won't change them, regardless of how many cheers from your echo chamber you get.
  5. Skuz Augur

    You are idealising & completely ignoring the reality that Krono expressly allows buying platinum with a Krono, in this the game actively allows the thing you are railing against.

    You're playing the wrong game & using faulty logic by ignoring realities your logic is not accounting for.
  6. Tweakfour17 Augur

    Once upon a time didn't Everquest have a higher currency value than some countries (plat to USD)? Seem to recall that little factoid but it may have been an exaggeration.
  7. Xenich Elder

    And you are obtusely narrowing to a point to avoid dealing with the reality of the issue.

    I already attended to your position of "the game allows it, so its not cheating". That is a technical escape from the reality of the point.

    RMT by its very purpose allows people to avoid having to play the game and use real money to buy their advancement in the game. That is what RMT is. You can not deny this, you can agree with it, claim it is fine, but it doesn't make it game play.

    RMT circumvents playing the game. Period. Your example that someone else did the work is irrelevant to the fact that the person who paid real money did not play the game at all, they bought the progression that others did. That is a fact, and no amount of obtuse ignorant "rationalizing" will change that fact.

    FFS just admit it, you are ok with people using real money to influence the game and move on. I swear you people are at war with your own acceptance of it as you defend moronic points to such ridiculously ignorant levels.
  8. Warpeace Augur

    Thats a lot of nonsense you just spewed. Apparently you didn't bother to read the link I provided or conveniently ignored it to keep on your obtuse point.

    Facts are facts. Adding mental gymnastics such as paying to have GM powers is a bit over the top. Here are the facts about Krono like them or not.
    Krono FAQCollapse All

    What are Krono?
    Krono are in-game objects that can be redeemed for 30 days of membership time. They are sold in the marketplace for real money only, or they may be purchased from other players via the broker or private trade for in-game currency.
    What can you do with them?
    You can buy them from DGC using real money, buy them from other players using in-game currency, gift them, sell them to other players for in-game currency, trade them to other players for other in-game items, and consume them. If you consume a Krono, it is removed from your inventory and 30 days of game membership time is added to the account associated with the character that consumed it.
    How can I acquire them?
    You can buy a new Krono from DGC for US $17.99 or less. Players can also gift Krono to other players, trade them, and sell them for in-game currency.
    Wait, does that mean I'm getting a membership for free?
    It depends. All Krono are initially purchased from DGC using real world money. After a Krono is purchased, it may be freely gifted, traded, or sold for in-game currency to other players. If another player gifts a Krono to you, then yes, you are effectively getting an item for free that can be redeemed for 30 days of game membership time. However, somebody previously paid real world money for that Krono.
    Why would I buy a Krono?
    There are many reasons to buy Krono. For example, if you're a veteran player with a lot of in-game currency, but not a lot to spend it on, you can use that extra currency to buy Krono from other players and turn it into game membership time. Alternatively, if you're a player without much in-game currency and can't buy things on the broker because prices are too high, you can consider buying Krono and selling them to other players to build up your in-game currency. You can also treat Krono as in-game commodities, and build up your in-game currency by buying and selling them on the broker for a profit.
    Does this replace any existing payment methods?
    No. Krono are not a payment method. They are in-game items that can be purchased from DGC and later redeemed for membership time. The introduction of Krono into the games will not replace any existing methods for buying game membership time.
    Can I trade them between characters?
    Yes, they may be transferred and traded between characters using the trading window, shared bank slots, in-game bazaar, and in-game parcel NPCs.
    How can I sell them for in-game currency?
    Depending on which game you are playing, you can trade them in person to another player, post them for sale on the broker, advertise them in chat channels, sell them in the bazaar, etc. Please note, however, that players may not sell Krono for real world money.
    Do they expire?
    No, Krono do not expire.
    Are Krono transferable between games?
    Only until the Krono is traded or consumed. For example, when you first purchase a Krono from DGC, you will be able to see that Krono from any character in any Krono-supporting game on the same account. However, once you place a Krono on the Broker or trade or sell it to another player within a game, the Krono enters that game permanently and cannot be moved to a different game. When your character consumes a Krono, the Krono will be removed from the game and you will get 30 days of game time for that game (or 30 days of All Access time if you are an All Access member).
    Are they refundable?
    Do Krono work for game memberships as well as All Access memberships?
    Yes. When a Krono is consumed, it will add 30 days of game membership time to the account associated with the character that consumed it. If that account has an existing All Access membership, the All Access membership will be extended by 30 days. If the account has a regular game membership, that membership will be extended by 30 days. If the account has no current membership, then 30 days of regular game membership time will be added to the account.
    How exactly does the Krono work?
    You consume the Krono by clicking the Use button on your character sheet next to the display of your Krono.
    Is there a limit to how many Krono I can purchase each day?
    You can purchase up to 25 Krono per day with real world money – either all at once or in separate transactions. There are no limits to purchasing Krono in-game from other players.

    So what argument is there to be made about Krono? It seems crystal clear.

    Many players seem to have a fair amount of disposable income and are purchasing Krono and trading them for in game services. How is this a cheat? Nothing listed is close to a violation of any of EQ rules that will cause your account to be suspended or banned.

    Krono are working as intended, like it or not.
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  9. Xenich Elder

    Already dealt with that. It doesn't change my point no matter how much you want to ignore it.

    Krono allows a person to circumvent the game play by buying the content from other players efforts. That is, a player can buy in game money "Real Money Trade, also known as Pay to Win" so they can "purchase" their "advancement" in the game without having to earn it through game play.

    This is a fact you have not disputed, all you have done is claim it is allowed, which was never my point.

    By your definition, if the game allowed players to pay the GMs real money for GM powers, it would be acceptable, you know... "cuz pert of da gume!"
  10. pikken New Member

    You're right they are working as intended, the ability to use real world currency to buy in game items. The previous poster is not arguing that it isn't working as intended, he's just pointing out how it's a "cheat" from a pay to win perspective. I don't understand how that is hard to grasp.
  11. pikken New Member

    Ironically I was asking to effectively pay double to play the game without a built in "cheat".
  12. Xenich Elder

    Yeah, I know... different generation of gamers, different times.

    I don't understand it though. Honestly, have seen extreme objection by people when someone suggests a strict rule-set server with no cheats, all the hand holding removed, etc... and I don't get it.

    I have seen people throw extreme tantrums and exhibit massive hate to people who suggest these servers, even though it would have ZERO effect on their own server of choices.

    Talk about an advanced form of narcissism.
  13. Skuz Augur

    I haven't claimed RMT doesn't exist or that it isn't part of the game, it is, this game has been running for 21 years with it baked in to the player economy, that's been there since 1999 you aren't some luminary genius who just figured this out.

    RMT so long as it stays within the rules allowed by the game isn't cheating it is an accepted way to trade time for money and it has been further enabled by Krono so that the game's developers can benefit from that market.

    Your whole argument conflates Krono with cheating which it isn't because cheating would be doing things not allowed by the game, in your head anyone who isn't doing the content is cheating, fine carry on, but your argument holds absolutely no water outside of your own skull or the skulls of those who choose to accept your very narrowly defined & limited perspective.

    In some imaginary version of EverQuest that exists only inside your head nobody uses Krono & nobody ever trades, but that isn't the game the rest of us have been playing for two decades & you can't ignore that to try & hold up your highly contentious argument.

    IF a strict ruleset server that eliminates all "cheating" as you see it - which would require no ability to trade in any form - were economically viable it would have been made, but it wouldn't resemble any form of EverQuest that has ever existed so far, you would have a no box, no trade, and this is both idealistic & unrealistic because both of those things are very easy for players to work around.

    No box, well how do you realistically & affordably achieve no-box?
    IP lock. Hello VPN

    GM enforcement? You would need an army of GMs paid staff, and that's not affordable for even one server.

    Premium subscription server to pay for the GMs?
    Been tried before, it was a horrible experience for those involved on the company end, it won't happen again because all it ended up leading to was a bunch of players believing that their premium sub entitled them to whine & threaten about every little thing they didn't like.

    Cloud cuckoo land.

    No trade?
    Just invite the player into the group as soon as the creature they want an item from spawns, you kill it & then they get the item. Then you arrange a paypal trade out of game between you.

    What can you do to stop that? Not a damn thing.

    Futile & lacking in any real world application of the logic you espouse because your logic simply doesn't work.
  14. yepmetoo Augur

    Delving into the TLP forums is amusing sometimes, reading the insane stuff people post.

    Get a job, pay for your sub like an adult, stop caring about krono or boxers and move on with your life.
  15. Eldrian Augur

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  16. code-zero Augur

    At its core, a Krono give you 30 days of all access play. Without creating an entire new tier of membership in order to access the proposed server I do not see how this can be accomplished.

    The other issue is that ALL ACCESSS means all access. So this scheme would deny access to all access subscribers. I believe it was in the FoH AMA that the devs bluntly stated that Stormhammer was a terrible server from the CS side of things and they would never have another premium server.

    As for the pay to win argument... well every PTW game that I am familiar with has a microtransaction shop in which you can buy items that would normally take hundreds if not thousands of hours to earn in game. Not things like EXP potions etc but flags to enter raid zones, raid gear and the best spells.
  17. Xenich Elder

    Irrelevant to the point.

    It is cheating as I have defined, but you are being obtuse on this point, ignoring the context.

    Again, another obtuse point avoiding the context to promote your point. This has already been covered, your point is irrelevant to the context of my discussion.

    Krono is cheating as it circumvents GAME PLAY. Calling RMT a part of game play does not change the fact that it is still allowing people to BUY progression with REAL MONEY in the game. You call that a game, I call it cheating the GAME itself and you can stretch, twist, manipulate to make yourself feel like you aren't cheating, anyone who has a brain knows you are. /shrug

    The fact is, Verant AND Sony were STRONGLY against RMT and several devs wrote about the issue back when it started becoming apparent with people like Yantis. They tried to fight against it for years until SoE finally sold out and caved to catering to it with their first PTW RMT servers.

    So please don't spin a tale of BS like you know what you are talking about. I was an professional working long before EQ was released, I remember it well.

    I could care less about the rest of your comments as there is no point in going into further discussion when obtusely are avoiding the lack of position you have on this issue.
  18. Xenich Elder

    That is all an argument of semantics.

    It takes time to earn anything in the game. Trying to excuse paying to bypass time spent because it is less or more is just rationalizing to justify cheating.

    ALL forms, be it exp potions, gear, travel potions, mounts, buffs, money, etc.. are cheating.

    If a person can pay real money to bypass playing the game, it is cheating.

    All you guys are doing is rationalizing levels of acceptance YOU are ok with. All are cheating, it is just a argument of who is ok with what.

    I am not ok with ANY of it.
  19. Xenich Elder

    What makes you think people don't have a job who object to cheating in a game?


    I was working 60 hours a week as a professional with a family at release of EQ, what were you doing? Playing on your parents computer?

    I think it funny how so many people proclaim themselves to be hard working players, but then advocate against earning in a game. That isn't the generation of gaming I knew. We used to play games to challenge us to earn, progress and develop.

    Today's gamers argue how it is justifiable for them to "buy" their way through a game and then think to proclaim themselves too enlightened or hard working as to why they do such.

    Yeah, fact is, every person I have seen go on with these arguments concerning this were either kids, or were lazy dead beats working no-end jobs talking about how they work hard all day and so deserve to cheat in a game when they come home from flipping burgers all day.

  20. SunDrake Augur

    EQ isn't your game, man. It likely never was, but without going there, do understand this: there has been an EQ subsciption base that has went along with the changes for many, many years. You aren't going to break that by espousing your version of some classic EQ dogma. Krono exist, have for years. Exp Potions? Mounts? Are you even serious?
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