Tuco's Setup (Critique Welcome!)

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Tucoh, May 6, 2017.

  1. draginn Elder

    Sorry off topic but all these charts and graphs remind me of president Trump getting his daily Intel briefings. Since he has attention span of a 5 year old! He has to have charts and graphs to understand.
  2. daranged Lorekeeper

    Anyone can do it using programs to play your game
    If it's reasonable and not unfair it's not cheating. If it gives you an unfair advantage and allows you to do things that can't be normally done in game it's cheating.
  3. Jyve Augur

    If using a key to mash selo's kick and such, worth using Boastful Bellow on that same key too? I like having Vainglorious Shout too, but worry it hits more than what I intended.
    Not used Requiem if Time for years, Horn from VT has such a long duration, it'll do if not a shammy about to smooth the initial hit of the mob, and/or the insta clicky from CoTF progression is a nice one to have auto mashing too.
    (as well as on the bard having all the other insta cast items to debuff, the drum for Chaos Chant debuff, and whatever other insta cast items you want to collect on your journeys).
  4. Tucoh Augur

    Good point about the staff of viral flux (CotF progression clicky), I've neglected that, but now that I've added a shaman the poison/disease debuff would be nice.

    For the bard, I need to get him a throwing weapon summon clicky. Right now I mostly use boastful bellow for pulling, so if I cast it on a mob we're fighting it won't be up before I need it to pull. I think even with the throwing weapons I'd still want it up all the time, because throwing weapons are extremely slow.

    Because I have a mage and now a shaman with me, AE malo is casted twice on all the mobs at the start of each fight and I haven't found resists to be a big deal. I still regularly use vainglorious shout when I don't use it for pulling through walls or whatever.

    Re: The Horn of Shadows from VT, that takes several more seconds to activate than Requiem of Time, right? If I dropped requiem of time from my spellbar, maybe I could put arcane melody back in my line up!

    Re: Selo's Drum of the March, Hardcore Heritage is coming up but I don't think my team can take out nagafen yet!
  5. fransisco Augur

    Thanks Tucoh.
    I was actually curious about that even though coronay pooped all over it.
  6. Jyve Augur

    Aye, Horn of Shadows does take longer to cast, but by the time I start the pull with Tash first landing, then cast it on the run as dragging the mob back, it's finishing just as the mob gets to camp. On a resist, a quick tap of the CoTF click is the same slow too as a backup. I can probably drop the horn and just use the cotf first with the horn as a backup perhaps so it's faster, it's a habit on pulling I could tweak, but then it's good having fast pulls to slow the main mob inc and still have the insta cast slow for an add if we're clearing and the merc tank can handle 2.
  7. Jyve Augur

    As to a thrower, plenty in game for tagging fast. I don't use them as much as I used to as there's so many insta cast abilities. Just that slight extra range I like for... reasons.
    Will always have a softspot for Ton Po, but so many expansions have a clicky throwing summoning item, not like you need the stats/damage for tagging.
  8. Brohg Augur

    I carry throwers still because they're less instant (flight time) but don't interrupt melody
  9. Zahel Journeyman

    I've been looking at expanding, and maybe changing, my team from 3 to 5, using the same tools.

    Currently, I box a War/Shaman/Bard with only in game macros it's super easy since neither the shaman or bard require very little attention in most situations (I use a cleric merc). I did set up the key mappers with my current setup, but honestly found it added very little benefit with such an easy to box team. The Shaman has nothing to spam and the Bard only has selo's kick. But adding a 4th and 5th will change that.

    Out of curiosity, why did you pick the classes you chose? Seems like a a fairly strange combination. I was planning on a fully melee centric ADPS group. I don't find positioning to be much of an issue at all with auto follow (and don't use any movement speed bonuses helps a ton too) outside of the occasional named that tosses characters.

    Since you also use a cleric merc, how often do you find you really need a priest class? In my current set up the warrior has such great defensive cooldowns I almost never heal with my shaman. This has been making me kind of want to switch the Shaman out for a Beastlord to get similar ADPS but gaining DPS.

    Next, how often do you feel you really need a bard to pull? Currently I pull with my warrior by basically just running into mobs or by chipping them off a few at a time. Haven't really had any issues with that so far given the strength of warrior cooldowns (I also use sword/board pretty much all the time.) I also find having to turn the bard songs off and on fairly annoying, and on top of that the Bard itself has terrible dps. That being said, I've been thinking of switch out the Bard for a Ranger for similar ADPS + much better DPS while still having track.

    I was also wondering why you have multiple spam keys? It seems more intuitive to try to put all of your spam abilities onto one key.
  10. Brohg Augur

  11. Zahel Journeyman

    Exactly. :oops: It's a hangover from the olden days of yore, and I just haven't put the time in yet to replace the character with something more appropriate which I hope to do soon.
  12. Tucoh Augur

    War/Sha/Bard is an excellent trio. I'm almost done with a good first pass of integrating my shaman, and will make a post similar to what I made for the previous 5 classes when I feel it's ready. But briefly, my shaman is the most complex class to box and one I have put the most work into.I have it set up to AE cripple, tigirs/turgurs, spam group/AE heals/buffs, cast dots etc. I'd argue that until you feel like you're getting a lot out of your shaman you may want to hold off on adding 2 more characters, but it's up to you of course.

    As for how much healing I need, it varies dramatically based on three factors: 1. How many mobs I just pulled, 2. Whether I am using my 2H for more DPS, or am using sword n board (or a good compromise, dual wield). 3. How many defensive cooldowns I have available. With a cleric / shaman (or cleric merc / shaman) both spamming heals, I feel pretty comfortable pulling some 10 mobs and tanking them all, and that can be a lot faster than pulling one group at a time. The good thing about a shaman is that if I pull 2-3 mobs, I can have the shaman DoT the piss outta one of the mobs while everyone else works on the other one.

    For my combination, my war is my main, my bard is my long-time alt, and I inherited a mage. Bard/War fits together like peaches and cream, the mage less so. But I can get a consisting 90k DPS from the mage, use it to CoH and if my warrior bites the dust I can pop cooldowns on my mage and my water pet will frequently be able to tank ok until I can resurrect my warrior. I chose to add a cleric because I wanted to be able to heal when a merc wasn't available, improve my healing and learn the cleric class to help improve my tanking skills. I added a berserker because it can do ridiculous DPS.

    For pulling I generally have two modalities: 1. I've got everyone on autofollow and just run to each mob, usually used outdoors. 2. I'm parked somewhere and have the bard pull. The power from #2 comes from the fact that I can start pulling with the bard before I finish the last group of mobs. This might seem small, but consider that every second you're not killing and have the mana/endurance/mobs to do so, you are effectively wasting your entire group's DPS.

    I have multiple spam keys mostly because there are so many AA / item abilities and I don't think it's possible to multi-bind them all. Discs can be multi-bound cleanly but I've found that AAs can't. That in addition to needing to /assist Tucoh, /pet swarm, /pet attack (in some cases).

    I think that answered all of your specific questions but if I missed some let me know. For general opinions from your questions I'll assume a few things about your setup and give you some unasked for advice:
    1. You may be increasing your time between groups of mobs a lot by not using runspeed buffs. In my opinion, a bard's selos is the #1 thing they bring to the table that nobody else can. (#2 being the 360mana/tick they can pump out). I get that it's harder to control with selos up, but it's worth it.
    2. With a bard/war/sha, you're really only hitting your DPS stride when your warrior is in 2H mode and your shaman has a full line up of DoTs on a mob. If you're already aiming to always be in 2H and with shaman dots up, good.
    3. Related to #2, your bard's biggest contribution to DPS outside of /melody is strategically putting funeral dirge on named and hitting mobs with vainglorious shout before your shaman starts its cycle.
    4. If you're adding two characters to that existing setup, and are comfortable with having them on /autofollow and meleeing, you'll probably get the highest DPS with two berserkers (seriously). If you have the same apprehension of having two of the same class as I do, you'll probably want to go with a berserker and a beastlord. I'm actually considering replacing my mage/cleric with a ranger/beastlord and having a melee-focused group.
  13. Zahel Journeyman

    Thanks for the response, I really appreciate the input. I've got a lot to think over it seems. The shaman/bard situation is really my biggest conundrum. Sounds like I need to leave those 'as is' for now and put more focus on setting up their key mappings and macros. Using the extra tool is still new to me so I have a lot of work to learn that well. I also just got myself a 1hander on the warrior so I can start dual wielding to increase my dps. Eventually when I get more comfortable I will try to switch to 2hander.

    As for the 4th and 5th slot, I was planning on going with one Berserker and one Rogue to avoid overlap (overlap bugs me a lot more than it should :cool:). Why would you choose Beastlord over a 2nd pure melee? Berserker seems like the most 'for sure' choice though.
  14. Tucoh Augur

    First, I'd like to thank everyone for their feedback. I've integrated a lot of it, and have a lot on the "todo list" (which is currently at 29 items :| ).

    Since the OP I've tried quite a few things and want to share them:
    1. I've integrated I S Boxer's click buttons into my warrior's UI. They are in the little black grid in the bottom left of my screen. I did this because frankly I've run out of effective buttons to bind to (including the 12 + alternate values for my Logitech G600). You can see I don't have them filled out completely, so there's room to grow. Right now it's just used to activate Vesagran's, hit some of the berserker's abilities I don't want activated as part of his normal chain and pop the Circle of Power clickies I have.

    2. I've streamlined the warrior a bit to make him a bit easier to play. Specifically I've added his spam clicky buttons to the main Q, E, 1 spam he has. This includes blood drinker's coating, imperator's charge, silken trillium, necromantic dragonbone, overflowing urn of life, blade guardian, resplendent glory, determined reprisal, second spire. I realize these are situationally useful, but having them just part of the general flow leaves me more room to focus on my other characters.

    3. The biggest change is I ditched the healer merc and replaced him with a shaman. I'm super happy with this change and very impressed with the shaman class in general. The combination of healing, buffing, debuffing and damage makes the shaman an incredible addition to a box team, and the complexity of the shaman means I have to strategize carefully about how it can be used. I'll describe my current setup below and would love any feedback.

    I have two modalities for my shaman based on whether I am grouped with my cleric or whether he is solo healing. When the shaman is backed by the cleric, I have it only casting group/AE healing spells which enables it to keep mob's targeted. This enables me to selectively debuff and DoT without retargetting. When the shaman is solo, it has a more healing focused regiment that makes use of reckless regeneration/restoration.


    The UI is nothing special. One change I made on all my boxes is I made the cast bar enormous. This allows me to see it in my periphery while I'm focused on my warrior. This provides me with an almost subconscious awareness of whether my characters are broken or not.

    With Cleric
    Assist: assist Tucoh (Activates auto attack) -> Focus of Arcanum -> Wind of Malosinete
    Cooldown1: assist Tucoh->Crippling Apparition
    Cooldown2: Call of the Ancients->Fleeting Spirit->Spiritual Blessing->Rabid Bear->Spirit Call
    Spam1: xtar 1->Third Spire->Ancestral Aid->Cannibalization
    Spam2: Breastplate Clicky->Epic 2.0->Horn of Unity
    Multibind: Historian's Intervention -> Spiritual Swell -> Shear of Renewal -> Lion's Roar -> Tribal Pact -> Krasir's Recourse

    I have a sequence of bound keys that enable me to DoT up a mob, which provides the ability to add quite a bit of damage. I strategize this by having the Shaman always target the first mob in the extended target window. Then I avoid focusing on that mob with my warrior. If I pull six mobs the shaman usually kills the first mob all by itself.

    The chain I use is: chaotic venom->hemocraxius' Pandemic->Garugaru->Sraskus' Curse.

    I have gina bars for the duration of those DoTs, and have audio triggers to tell me when it's resisted. I think that's overkill though and will probably remove them.

    Additionally I have a few specific keys I use outside the normal rotation. I have these bound to my G600's alternative side keys. They include: Tigir's Insect Swarm, Turgur's Swarm, Ancient Alliance, Paralytic Spray and Group Shrink

    In general the setup I have works as follows on big pulls:
    Pull->Flash of Anger->Tigir's Insect Swarm->Assist/Cooldown1/2->1 cycle of heals->DoT 1st mob on target window->spam for rest of fight.

    This rotation enables me to put malo, slow and maybe cripple on most of the mobs, keep up some strong AE heals on the group and a respectable set of DoTs on one mob in the group. The AE HoTs provide a strong counter-balance to the cleric, where any gaps in healing (Because I'm moving, they're stunned/broken/dead) are mitigated by the HoTs.

    6/9 With Cleric Spells
    I'll list the spells cast in a fairly random sample where I'm running with war, brd, ber, mag, cle and sha. This was in HH Seb and over a period of 45 minutes. It was at the start of HH Seb where I was taking it slow, but from a distribution standpoint shouldn't matter that much. HH Seb wasn't very conducive to good DoTing because the health of each mob was fairly low, so the frequency of DoTs is lower than I typically have for EoK T2 zones.
    --- Ancestral Aid XXVIII - 8
    --- Ancient Alliance Rk. II - 2
    --- Blessing of Unity - 8
    --- Cannibalization XIII - 34
    --- Chaotic Venom Rk. II - 12
    --- Crippling Apparition - 22
    --- Cry Havoc - 80
    --- Fleeting Spirit V - 5
    --- Focus of Arcanum IV - 9
    --- Garugaru Rk. II - 12
    --- Hemocoraxius' Pandemic - 14
    --- Historian's Intervention Rk. II - 42
    --- Krasir's Recourse Rk. II - 32
    --- Prophet's Gift of the Ruchu - 22
    --- Rejuvenation of the Ancestors - 8
    --- Roar of the Lion - 46
    --- Shear of Renewal Rk. II - 129
    --- Spiritual Blessing IX - 5
    --- Spiritual Swell Rk. II - 170
    --- Sraskus' Curse Rk. II - 11
    --- Third Spire of Ancestors IV - 11
    --- Tigir's Insect Swarm III - 13
    --- Tribal Pact Rk. II - 67
    --- Turgur's Swarm VI - 11
    --- Wind of Malosinete IV - 46

    You can see I'm mostly casting spiritual swell and shear of renewal (mostly for the synergy). I only got about a dozen DoT chains off in 45 minutes, which is pretty light compared to what I was getting in EoK.

    I was also being fairly lazy in my tigir's here, only casting it 13 times. Because I manually activate it, if I'm lazy it doesn't happen. I've tried putting it in my spam buttons, but I cast it too frequently at the end of a pull for my taste. On big (8+) pulls I'm more disciplined about using it, and that's where it counts.

    Without Cleric
    Without the cleric, the shaman has a more simple role. I'll list the differences here, which are mostly focused on casting single short term buffs on the tank, and not casting targeted debuffs on mobs. The only targeted debuff I cast is wind of malo.
    Cooldown1: Just cast Reckless Regeneration on tank
    Cooldown2: Cast Reckless Restoration on tank instead of Spirit Call
    Spam1: Cast Union of Spirits and Spirit Guardian on tank
    Multibind: Historian's Intervention-> Reckless Regeneration->Spiritual Swell->Shear of Renewal->Roar of the Lion->Ferocious Growth->Krasir's Recourse->Reckless Restoration

    In this configuration I don't cast DoTs or Ancient Alliance, but still utilize Tigir's, Turgur's and Paralytic Spray.

    7/4 Without Cleric Spells
    These spells were taken at the end of the HH Seb event on the Myconids. It was over a period of 47 minutes. I wouldn't read too much into the density of the kills, I was able to clear the entire myconid area in about 10 minutes and was so exhausted from HH Seb that I wasn't farming multiple picks.
    --- Ancestral Aid XXVIII - 9
    --- Ancestral Guardian Spirit VI - 10
    --- Blessing of Unity - 8
    --- Call of the Ancients XII - 3
    --- Cannibalization XIII - 14
    --- Cry Havoc - 105
    --- Ferocious Growth Rk. II - 16
    --- Fleeting Spirit V - 3
    --- Focus of Arcanum IV - 10
    --- Group Shrink - 3
    --- Historian's Intervention Rk. II - 48
    --- Inconspicuous Totem XXI - 1
    --- Krasir's Recourse Rk. II - 5
    --- Prophet's Gift of the Ruchu - 23
    --- Purified Spirits I - 1
    --- Rabid Bear VIII - 5
    --- Radiant Cure IX - 1
    --- Reckless Regeneration Rk. II - 256
    --- Reckless Restoration Rk. II - 2
    --- Rejuvenation of the Ancestors - 9
    --- Roar of the Lion - 35
    --- Shear of Renewal Rk. II - 112
    --- Slain - 2
    --- Spiritual Blessing IX - 3
    --- Spiritual Swell Rk. II - 179
    --- Third Spire of Ancestors IV - 13
    --- Tigir's Insect Swarm III - 4
    --- Union of Spirits XIX - 18
    --- Wind of Malosinete IV - 50

    You can see I'm relying mostly on reckless regeneration, spiritual swell and shear of renewal in that order. Reckless Restoration is cast so infrequently that I could probably drop it, but I don't have any need for extra spell slots in this configuration so it doesn't matter much.

    I wasn't casting Tigir's much here simply because the mobs were so easy.

    AAs I'm not using (for better or worse):
    . Group Pact of the Wolf: I'm haste capped and the extra health doesn't stack with mount buff
    . Dampen Resistance: Too lazy
    . Preincarnation: Too lazy
    . Forceful Rejuvenation: Not sure when I'd want to cast this?
    . Purified Spirits / Radiant Cure: No excuses, I need to set up some gina triggers for my group for when I get a debuff I want to cleanse and have an easy way to pop this. Same with blood of rivans.

    Spells I'm not using (for better or worse):
    . Halcyon Bluster: I'm not even sure if this stacks with everything else I'm using, but maybe I could put it down near Krasir's in my spell lineup.
    . Sluggishness: I think I should add this back in and keep it up, just because I've not been casting Tigir's frequently.
    . Spirit of Tala'Tak: Doesn't stack with quick time!!!!
    . Glacial Gift: I've found that it just creates a gap in effective healing that isn't worth it.
    . My shaman pet: No excuses
    . Responsive Spirit: No excuses, I need to start casting this on the Droga mission at the very least.
    . Regenerating Counterbias: I stopped using this at some point because using it created a gap in my healing, maybe I should add it back in?
    . Feralisenia: I wanted to integrate this in with my melee group (I have good blunt weapons for everyone), but it doesn't stack with my warrior's Gut Punch which I think is pretty useful. I may ditch Gut Punch and use it later, but I feel like maybe the damage added from a single DoT cast on a mob I kill last is more than the damage added by casting Feralisenia on a mob that I'm focusing.
    . Putrescent Decay: I haven't looked into this yet, but at its face seems not worth it.
    . Splash of Glyphdust: When looking at a DI histogram I've found that trash mobs have such low AC vs my character's ATK that reducing their AC (especially with such a goofy spell) isn't worth it.
    Issuance of Malos: I feel like I keep malo up on everyone so much that this isn't worth it.

    So, that's how I use my shaman. I'm proud of how strong of a contributor he is, but know I'm not using him to his fullest. All suggestions are welcome.
  15. Tucoh Augur

    I'm responding to a different thread I don't want to derail:
    In the first slew of posts in this thread I posted a parse that I used for benchmarking the performance of my team:
    Combined: A briarweb spider on 5/6/2017 in 2326sec
    Total--- DMG: 1044572484 (100%) @ 449085 dps (449085 sdps)
    Tucos + pets--- DMG: 425839610 (40.77%) @ 183078 dps (183078 sdps)
    Tucoh--- DMG: 368503844 (35.28%) @ 158496 dps (158428 sdps)
    Lusa + pets--- DMG: 219885512 (21.05%) @ 94574 dps (94534 sdps)
    Tucob--- DMG: 21054589 (2.02%) @ 9341 dps (9052 sdps)
    Tucop--- DMG: 9282629 (0.89%) @ 4045 dps (3991 sdps)

    The breakdown of the warrior's performance is:
    Tucoh -vs- Combined: A briarweb spider: -- DMG: 368503844 -- DPS: 158496 -- Scaled: 158428 -- Crush: 296394782 -- Slash: 54340798 -- DirDmg: 13935090 -- Kick: 2514313 -- Bash: 1318861 -- Non-crit rate: 45.9% -- crit rate: 35.8% -- crippling rate: 18.3% -- Attempts: 11180 -- Hits: 8811 -- Missed: 2369 -- Accuracy: 78.8% -- Avg Hit: 41823 -- Max hit: 848305 -- DMG to PC: 29223613

    That 158k DPS isn't pure auto-attack DPS. It'll include everything from riposte (which accounted for 5.7% of my DPS) to rampage (which I triggered 14 times), but it is also while I am six-boxing.

    I did a set of more controlled DPS parses earlier this year, where I tried to evaluate the actual impact of different buffs in my team.
    The table I created is below:

    and also visible in spreadsheet format under the AutoAttack tab here:

    The 150k figure came from that being the goal I try to hit on my warrior over long periods of time while six-boxing. Because warrior's DPS mostly comes from auto-attack, they scale very well with ADPS, particularily HHE from Dichotomic Fury, Quicktime etc. You can see in the Dicho Fury comparisons from this table, that one buff brought my auto-attack DPS (without any other burns) from 92k to 152k and my burn auto attack DPS from 230k to 305k! These ratios improving by 33% should come as no surprise given that dicho fury's effect is (Decrease Weapon Delay by 33.8%), but it's still an unbelievably massive jump.

    I don't feel like my DPS is particularly high. Besides my 2H from Plane of Hate, my gear is EoK group gear. A big burden is that when a group has merely good DPS (let's call that around 500k total), they cut through EoK mobs so quickly that much of my time is spent positioning mobs and moving from group to group. I know I'm not sequencing all my DPS abilities correctly while fighting, which is something I'm continually working on.
  16. Thoxsel Augur

    Yea so like I said you aren’t just looking at auto attack minus all discs and abilities and other class adps to also help. Of course using your skills and adps etc will make for a very different result. That was the pure reason for my post saying what you called auto attack dps as a wrong way of describing what you are exemplifying above. And as such, I didn’t want it to get picked up as a truth people then take out of context and let the nerf train start again.

    What you shared above by the way, I have no quarrels with. Just that it doesn’t represent “auto attack dps” of warriors at all as it includes many other tools that you didn’t refer to in the other thread post.

    Anyway. Stay safe in Norrath. :)
  17. Tucoh Augur

    One of the things I kind of want to do is go through the expansions and do their raids with my team. I want to see how current I can get to and I find it's a nice break from the general tank-and-spank setup of group content. I got my 2.5 epic last night (finally) and found the Wailing Sisters event challenging enough to note here in case any other box groups wanted to give it a shot. There's a hard limit of 25 minutes to the encounter and I didn't look at my log to see how close I was to that, but it felt like I did the last snitch just in time.

    I'd recommend you get a couple buddies who can track to help you, but if you want to do it alone for whatever reason here's what I did.
    1. Four boxed it with the following assignments:
    Bard: Snitch to Christine
    Warrior: Snitch to Brenda
    Berserker: Snitch to Althea
    Ranger: Stood in center of area, facing North and tracking the sisters.

    2. While you can't illusion through doors anymore, you can always enter the north area through the center door, and enter the south area through the eastern side.

    3. The directions from the ranger's perspective were enough to allow the snitch characters to run around that area hailing their assigned sister until they got a response. It's faster to rely on spam-hailing over actually finding the sister. Ideally all characters can track and just keep tracking their assigned sisters.

    4. I chose to NEVER snitch on Christine, which makes it easier to keep all the sisters on cooldown (or asking you to snitch on Christine), but if I did it again I'd probably snitch on all of them in case you get really unlucky with them always asking to snitch on Christine.

    5. I didn't pay attention to any snitching order or anything. As soon as I found a sister who wanted to know what Brenda or Althea were up to, and found what they were up to I snitched ASAP.

    6. I only created macros to target the sisters on each of the snitch characters. You can type out just the bold phrases. You don't need to say "She is sabotaging a coffin", just sabotaging will do.

    7. If you're like me, you're in the demiplane of blood for the first time and have the zone-wide aura that snares you. Do the other T1 events and do the turn-ins to become immune to the snare portion of debuff.

    8. I had a character assigned to snitch to each sister, but you can get away with two. You just have to never snitch ON the sister you're assigned to snitch TO. So if you've got to talk to Brenda and Althea, never use that character to snitch on Brenda and Althea.
  18. Sissruukk Augur

    Funny, I use charts and graphs in my work, and I don't have the attention span of a 5 year old.
  19. Tatanka Augur

    Well, at least he attends the daily intel briefing, unlike his worthless predecessor ;)
  20. kinadafz Augur

    I wish I could understand everything you are writing up. You and I are almost identical EQ players with same goals, and even close to the same setups.

    Soon i'll get there :)

    I was pretty happy to plow through Anguish last week in about 30-40 minutes. I'm playing in TSS now.

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