Tuco's Setup (Critique Welcome!)

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Tucoh, May 6, 2017.

  1. Tucoh Augur

  2. Nibby New Member

    I have ran into a dilemma with the possible change from caster to melee group. (Recently returned player)

    I have currently leveling a SK Enc Clr Mag Wiz Wiz group almost 110 (mostly conflag gear), and i ran a melee group SK SHM BRD Zerk Bst Rng (110 GMM+T2 TBL Group Gear) prior to starting to level my casters. Been pondering doing 2/3x Zerk. But i have a hard giving up the utility of the caster group/fully commiting to melee group, i like them both equally. Utility of the caster is addicting, but the raw kill speed of the melee teams are also addicting.

    I know this is a question that has different response per each individual, but i guess im just looking of input/comments on why are making the switch from caster groups to zerker(/melee filled) groups. Is Casters that much slower to spin up DPS, is there really no need for the CC utility these days, or is really just to mow through what ever stands in your way. I see more people talk about melee groups then i do caster groups the days in the boxer community.
  3. IblisTheMage Augur

    Rgd mages, Alliance, and Volley:

    Stacking mages works very well for dps, ramp-up of pets is fast and sustains well, especially if you pull fast enough. It should be quite easy to reach 15 pets, and remember, Of Many break-even with Spear is 6 pets :).

    RS & Synergy can be utilized by haven mages on similar rotations, but starting at different places in the rotation, at the same time. RS-Many-Chaotic-Spear will work fine, save mana, and if shifted for the different mages, give a high degree of Synergy-effects on nukes. If you can get time between mobs down to a few sec, mana can be a problem. This is especially for relatively open areas, where you can harvest mobs around you in nuke range. High ground helps.

    Alliance can be managed, but will most often not be worth the clicks, because mobs die too fast.

    Key is to set up rotation for AA swarm pets, and only choose classes that can add to the pet count. Bards and shaman are great for this.

    You might consider starting DPS as early as possible, for example pull with 2 Mal Acro, 2 Spear, timed so that spear lands .2 sec after Mal Acro, send pets ind immediately, and begin rotation right away, so that the combat is a bit away fron camp. Mages have some good range on some of their nukes. Some RS pets will likely grab aggro, and when a mage grab aggro, the pets will get the mob in the back, while it tries to move in. This is for non-summoning mobs, of course. Use only water pets, give them weapons, so that they can frontstab. This is assuming ISB.

    3+ mages is a bit boring, and not really good in enclosed spaces, you will want to have a real tank as well.
    BadPallyGuildLeader likes this.
  4. Tucoh Augur

    Both types are going to be extremely fast.

    The thing that excites me about my 4x mage group is:
    [58204/7753] Firebound Covenant Rk. II
    Max Hits: 8 Matching Spells
    1: Increase Spell Damage Taken by 40399 (After Crit)
    (after 8 spells cast)
    1: Decrease Current HP by 2588052

    Volley of Many
    Casting: 0.75s, Recast: 9s, Timer: 6, Rest: 1.5s
    1: Decrease Current HP by 4737 (If Between 1 To 2 Pets On Hatelist)
    2: Decrease Current HP by 10208 (If Between 3 To 5 Pets On Hatelist)
    3: Decrease Current HP by 17210 (If Between 6 To 9 Pets On Hatelist)
    4: Decrease Current HP by 28172 (If Between 10 To 14 Pets On Hatelist)
    5: Decrease Current HP by 44429 (If More Than 14 Pets On Hatelist)

    Conjurer's Synergy II (on swarm pet cast)
    Max Hits: 1 Matching Spells
    1: Increase Spell Damage by 60% (Before Crit)

    If I can cycle synergy properly and time a chaotic/spear/volley cast right after covenant lands, we're talking a massive amount of damage.

    The problem is: Alliance is a bit of effort to organize especially since it has a cast time unlike the berserker one. Making good use of the synergy by trying to separate your swarm pet casts reduces the speed at which you get to 15+ pets, while also reducing a given mage's DPS by reducing the speed at which they produce pets.

    Compare that with a melee crew that can roll in, do a tremendous amount of instant damage to blow up a couple mobs, then move to a new victim while their cooldowns are recovering.

    It's still something I want to try. What's a little annoying is that all the good stuff above is recent, so someone leveling a mage group from scratch has to get through a lot of pretty boring and basic gameplay before they can really start to have fun with the above abilities.
    Skewert and IblisTheMage like this.
  5. enclee Augur

    So how's the 4 zerker stacked group compared to the 3 zerker stacked group?
  6. Tucoh Augur

    I'm not whulfgar but he said the 4zerker setup eclipsed his 3zerker setup.

    I leveled 3 new zerkers together to join my old zerker and they haven't reached maximum potential but I have severe doubts about war/sha/4x zerker being more lethal than war/sha/brd/3x zerker. Bards bring so much to a group that is so deprived of utility, and bards themselves are just in a great state right now.

    But even beyond all the synergies, I feel naked without track.
    Skewert and code-zero like this.
  7. Dreadmore Augur

    curious--do you have multiple box groups? which ones are your favorite and least favorite and why?
    I have been of the opinion that a box group should contain a variety of classes at the cost of sacrificing some lethality just so I can have different classes to play should I get bored of the grind. also, doing all the different epics.
  8. BadPallyGuildLeader Augur

    Exactly my experience with my 3 zerkers and since I really dont have the socials with the zerkers where I need to have them, it's alot more clicking that you'd really like to be doing as a boxers for the dps boxes.
  9. Tolzol Augur

    Yea zerkers aren’t easy boxes unless you use innerspace, but once you get dex high enough 3 zerkers fulminate alliance no problem. Hell me and behelit used to fire ours with just the two of us. Didn’t always work but under a full burn it worked np and occasionally without usually when bst hits dicho.
  10. enclee Augur

    What triggers the Zerker alliance?
  11. Tucoh Augur

    The crew I'm rolling into the next expansion with to take on whatever comes my way is war/brd/sha/ber/mag/cle. It's a high survivability, high utility, medium DPS group.

    Once I do all the progression, beat the missions and do challenger I'll switch to my high DPS group of war/brd/sha/3x ber and do farming, hunter, collectibles etc. It's way more fun because it's high risk, high reward gameplay.
  12. Tucoh Augur

    A zerker will hit the mob with Mangler's Covenant which does two things: give a buff to nearby zerkers to proc Mangler's Bladestrike and pop a debuff on their target that makes them take 22x damage from Mangler's Bladestrike and makes them take 2.8million damage if they get hit with 10 bladestrikes.
    Against random group mobs? Or against named mobs / raid mobs that you two are tag-teaming?

    The problem for me is that mobs die in 10s and I need about 12-15 to fulminate.

    Dumb Q: Is the proc-rate difference really that high between OK and great levels of dex? I know dex helps proc rates, but I thought it was primarily pumped for crit rates. My gina setup has a bar for each bladestrike that contributes to fulmination, and I've been a little disappointed that my top-group geared, fully AA'd berserker isn't contributing substantially more bladestrikes than my fresh 110 berserkers.
  13. Tolzol Augur

    It will likely never fire on a trash mob. Would only be worth using on named/raid mobs. There’s a noticeable difference in proc rate from ok to high levels of dex. Just as there’s a noticeable difference in crit rate. But ok is a relative term, what are you considering ok levels?

    It is also worth noting alliances were mainly introduced for the raid game. I can’t imagine they pictured them being useful at any other time lol.
  14. BadPallyGuildLeader Augur

    Synergy I think is different though correct? There is a PLer on FV who told me that mangling frenzy triggers the synergy. But he also uses amplified vs. bolstered. Who knows right? Seems like depending on who you talk to there is a different approach....which I dont mind. Either way it seems to end at the same location, ie, stuff dies stupidly fast with 2 to 3 zerkers in the group game.
  15. Tolzol Augur

    Yea Mangling frenzy triggers our synergy. Bolstered is just the newest version of amplified so not sure why he’d use amplified lol. But you are correct either way stuff just falls over with that many zerkers In a group lol.
  16. Vaeeldar Augur

    So I have my 3rd box group up and running - for awhile now sk, ench (bard previously), cleric/shaman, 3x mage has been my go to. Two years ago I decided to add pal, ench, cleric/druid, 3wiz.

    After following your threads Tucoh I now run a 3rd team of war, bard, cleric/shm, 3ber. I just got it up and running with decentish aa (20k) and all the right gear. Overall the dps on this group will likely beat out my mage group (some of the burst on the ber team is insane frankly) but I have noticed a few weaknesses recently. How do you deal with mez mobs? It's been a huge pain in the and frankly the mage team I just never even thought about it.

    One other item I'm thinking about is the bard worth it or would I get more out of a 4th ber or a mage so I have a backup tank. Anyway just toying with the idea but I have to admit I love the ber group - dps is pretty sick and I'm far from max aa.
  17. Tuco Elder

    re: mez, I find that frequently mobs mez the first person o ntheir aggro list, so I use the bard to pull mezzing mobs. Otherwise I have the shaman's radiant cure ready to go.

    re: 4xber vs 3xber/brd, I find the bard simply contributes too much utility, survivability and ADPS to replace him with another berserker. Without the bard my team is slower (Especially since berserkers can't stay mounted because of frenzy), blind (no track), less in control from having no ability to pull, more fragile from no Rigelon's Reckless Renewal (among other things) and the pure DPS/ADPS contribution the extra bard brings closes the DPS gap nicely.

    That being said, I did level a berserker on the bard account and might give it a shot just to see if I can't guarantee a covenant fulmination on trash mobs. If the next expansion doesn't upgrade alliance this might be a dead end.
    code-zero likes this.
  18. aozs Journeyman

    Hey Tucoh, thanks for making this thread. Just finished TBL challenger with a war/rog/ber/brd/shm/clr team and it was a LOT of fun. I don't know if I would have even attempted 6-boxing if I didn't have this thread to help clear up a lot of unknowns. The continued discussions have been very interesting to read as well.

    The progression has been really satisfying - every single day, there's some very noticable step forward, whether it's learning new missions, improving the boxing setup, acquiring gear, incorporating new skills, etc. To get a sense of how far I've come - I remember being happy breaking 1M dps on burn when I first started TBL. Last night, I hit my new record burn on my Three at Once win:

    /GU Shadows of Stone in 29s, 92688k @3196125sdps | Berserker 34378k@1,185.5k sdps [37.09%] | Rogue 23955k@826.0k sdps [25.85%] | Warrior 23266k@802.3k sdps [25.1%] | Bard + pets 4824k@166.3k sdps [5.2%] | Shaman + pets 4484k@154.6k sdps [4.84%] | Cleric 1622k@55915sdps [1.75%] | Rogue 160k@5510sdps [0.17%]

    And I'm sure there's still a lot more to learn and ways to improve.

    Anyway, to contribute to the boxing discussion as well - for all the berserker love I see on the forums, if I were to swap out my cleric for another DPS, I would definitely add a 2nd rogue. Rogues are much more consistent, as they have a clean cooldown cycle based around a big burn every 10 minutes. I've noticed my rogue is very consistently hitting 750-900k on burn. Also, my rogue can pretty reliably proc covenant if the entire team is wearing cheap Spider's Bite poisons and both priests are melee'ing.

    My berserker, on the other hand, seems to be all over the place on burns, anywhere from 500k-900k normally. I believe it's a mix of Dissident Rage randomness (twinstrike, how many hits are max cripplings) and cooldowns not lining up that nicely. Also almost certain that I'm doing things suboptimally, but I don't feel like there's any gigantic gains to be made either.

    Baseline sustain with no major CDs seems to favor the berserker, but that's likely because rogue dps is balanced around on hitting that big burn every 10 minutes.

    Overall though, in my experience, the rogue is definitely competitive with the berserker in DPS and in many situations substantially better.
    Skewert and code-zero like this.
  19. Tucoh Augur

    Nice report, 3.2million DPS way surpasses anything I've done.

    I've wondered how good rogues were vs berserkers. I think being able to spiders bite your berserker/warrior could be a huge advantage. Maybe I should try out a rogue team next year :D
  20. Tucoh Augur

    So just to summarize:
    Account 1: Monk(main), Pal, Bard, Cleric
    Account 2: Shaman(second fav), Ranger, Rogue
    Account 3: Warrior, Mage
    Account 4: Enchanter, Wizard

    So you've some really great options for boxing here. Generally a good box team has good damage, tanking and utility. The biggest question is how you'll tank mobs, second is whether you have caster or melee DPS. Let me list what are good boxing combos for each of the four accounts.

    Mage centric group: Monk/Bard + Shaman/Ranger + Mage + enchanter
    Warrior centric group: Bard/Cleric + Shaman/Rogue + Warrior + wizard

    If I were you and wanted an ez-mode box team, I'd probably go:

    You may want to consider getting a heroic mage / wiz or two and do something like:

    Which allows you to set up long damage macros on your mag/wiz, let your bard run his melody and you can do most of everything else with your warrior.

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