Fixed Internally ToV "Enhanced Velium" Weapon Hitting For Wrong Damage

Discussion in 'Resolved' started by Gorehammer, Feb 10, 2020.

  1. Sancus Augur

    This is a very confusing thread. Nothing described herein about delay scaling sounds like a bug to me, but if there is something wonky with it that should go to a different thread. It does sound like there's a damage cap on weapons somewhere around 700 damage.

    The formulas described under the "PC Melee damage' header here are still accurate, although the Damage Table value has increased since then (was 4.25 for my 110 Monk). There are a lot of unique possible rolls, but you it's pretty easy to calculate your weapon damage if you keep your delay constant between different tests. If someone wanted to run a long parse with a TBL and ToV weapon of the same delay and no other changes in variables/procs/w/e, it shouldn't be too hard to find out what the cap is exactly.
    Riou and Duder like this.
  2. RangerGuy Elder

    I am not saying it should or shouldn't but that seems to be Dzarn's intent when he changed all these AA to work like rogue and monk dicho's and diss's. My point was regardless of how it works it works the same for all weapons so getting new weapons was an increase to dps. Hitting for 35,000 max with zero haste verses hitting for 27,000 max fully hasted means nothing if you still gained dps with haste.

    Excluding any potential damage cap issue for big ToV 2h weapons.
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  3. yepmetoo Abazzagorath

    The only part of weapon mastery that scales is the MINIMUM damage modifier. It scaling should not have any effect on the max hit of the weapon. That is how it is supposed to work anyway.

    The 65% base damage increase wasn't supposed to scale, and that may be what is happening?

    % effects don't scale like that, makes no sense to do so. The flat effect IS supposed to scale, that makes sense, as a bonus to higher delay weapons.

    Of course, there is the elephant in the room that if/when this is fixed, the damage on the knight weapons will be nerfed.

    Not that is reasonable, but I bet it happens.

    Zerker 2hb ascending sun to velium enhanced went up 16.04% (same delay).

    Knight 2her ascending to velium went up 13.82% (same delay)

    As much fun as knights (not just paladins) are having burning velks, zerkers doing 2x us so not like knights are "real dps" except on short bursts compared to terrible players (or casters, which are just at a disadvantage in those durations), and sustained against undead we're good, but we were before honestly if anyone bothered to do anything old against undead.

    There may be a damage cap issue, unsure if so to be honest, but there is definitely an issue where adding haste reduces functional weapon damage due to degraded base damage changes.
  4. Sancus Augur

    I'm not sure I follow. Here's the data for Weapon Mastery of the Knight Rank 27:

    1: Increase Base Hit Damage by 65%
    2: Increase 2H Slash Damage Bonus v2 (Delay Normalized) by 3250
    3: Increase 2H Blunt Damage Bonus v2 (Delay Normalized) by 3250
    4: Increase 2H Pierce Damage Bonus v2 (Delay Normalized) by 3250

    All of those are delay normalized additions to swing damage. They are added to all 2 hand hits, maximum hits and minimum hits alike. There is no minimum hit damage modifier (SPA 186) on Weapon Mastery of the Knight.
  5. yepmetoo Abazzagorath

    Then the description of the effect has always been wrong:

    "Increases the minimum damage of your 2-handed weapon attacks by 3250 points (scaled to the delay of your weapon)."

    But note that slot 1 is NOT delay normalized, and THAT is where the problem is. The gap in the same damage weapon max hit from 100 to 217% delay is more than the DB line, AND the max slay reflects that something is affecting base damage somewhere.
  6. Sancus Augur

    Yeah, that's wrong. The damage is added to all hits
    Again, I'm not sure I follow. Did you post a parse in this thread? I know there are a bunch of parses here, but it's pretty hard to work from other people's data and I'm sure some of them didn't properly keep variables constant and stuff.

    Parse - 117% Haste

    Anyhow, I decided to run a parse on a paladin. This is at level 110 with a group ToV T1 weapon, 40 Heroic Strength, Weapon Mastery of the Knight 22 (+65%/+1500 dmg), Innate Holyblade 18 (+80%), 117% Haste (i.e., 100% base + 17% from AA) passively, Slay Undead 14 (+3150% damage modifier) and Two-Handed Proficiency I as my only buff.

    My minimum normal Slash hit was 5592 and my maximum normal Slash hit was 25709. Using the formula from my previous post, these can be calculated by assuming a DamageBonus of 5339 and by factoring SPA 482 (the 65% on Weapon Mastery) into weapon damage directly (Effective_Weapon_Damage = Weapon_Damage * (100% + SPA_482)).

    For the minimum normal Slash, which is a DI Roll of 1 and a DamTabRoll of 1, this looks as follows:

    Effective_Weapon_Damage = 513 * (100% + 65%) = 846
    WeaponHit = Trunc((1 / 10) * 846 + 0.5) = 85
    HStrDam = Trunc(40 / 10) = 4
    Damage = 5339 + 4 + Trunc(((100% + 190%) * Trunc(85 * 1 + 1))) = 5592, vs 5592 observed

    For the maximum normal Slash, which is a DI Roll of 20 and a DamTabRoll of 4.15, this looks as follows:

    Effective_Weapon_Damage = 513 * (100% + 65%) = 846
    WeaponHit = Trunc((20 / 10) * 846 + 0.5) = 1692
    HStrDam = Trunc(40 / 10) = 4
    Damage = 5339 + 4 + Trunc(((100% + 190%) * Trunc(1692 * 4.15 + 1))) = 25706, vs 25709 observed

    You'll notice that last value is 3 off. Every DamTabRoll of 4.15 I had was 3 off, and the max slays and stuff were 3 off as well. I'm sure it's related to truncations/rounding, but I don't care enough to find it.

    Parse - 167% Haste

    Then I ran a parse with 167% Haste, but with other variables kept constant. My minimum normal Slash became 4172 and my maximum normal Slash became 24289. The minimum hit and maximum hit both decreased by 1420 (5592 - 4172 = 1420; 25709 - 24289 = 1420).

    The DamageBonus value is now 3919, down from 5339. Looking at Weapon Mastery, the delay scaling portion is 1500. With a 37 delay weapon and 117% haste, that would be 4743 damage (1500 * (3.7 / 117%)). With 167% haste using the same formula, that goes down to 3,323 damage (1500 * (3.7 / 167%)). 4743 - 3323 = 1420. I can go through all of the above calculations again, but basically the damage added by Weapon Mastery scaled exactly as expected when adding haste.

    Slay Comparison

    The max slays changed by the same amount. My max slay with 117% haste was 646938, and my max slay with 167% haste was 645518. The difference between those two values is also 1,420.

    For bonus points, here's how to calculate the slay value (using 117% haste):

    Effective_Weapon_Damage = 513 * (100% + 65%) = 846
    WeaponHit = Trunc((20 / 10) * 846 + 0.5) = 1692
    HStrDam = Trunc(40 / 10) = 4
    Damage = 5339 + 4 + 3150% * (5 + Trunc(((100% + 190%) * Trunc(1692 * 4.15 + 1)))) = 646935, vs 646938 observed

    Still 3 off from somewhere. You can replace 3150% with 170% + SPA330% to get the formula for a critical hit.

    TL;DR

    It looks to me like Weapon Master of the Knight is working as expected, as are delay scaling spell effects in general (assuming it's intended that they scale with haste). It's very likely there is an issue with damage caps on weapons. It's possible that cap is exacerbated by SPA 482, I don't know.
  7. Redemption Lorekeeper

    that's part of my problem i guess. i just never knew that the scaling included outside componnants ie. haste. also no one else i talk to knew it either. and to be honest it sounds like you don't know it ,but have inferred it because you have worked out the that math that shows it. so that's cool , we all agree that it is happening. if it is intended , well at least alot more ppl will know about it now.
  8. Ngreth Thergn Developer

    What is confirmed is the damage cap. it is a thing. Right now it's 6*level. I've asked for a change.
  9. enclee Augur

    Any chance we could hear what the new value will be?
  10. Jokskilove Palzerker

    Thanks for acknowledging the damage cap - I guess it's in place to prevent low levels from having weapons that are too good for their level.
    Regarding the weapon mastery thing - based on what Sancus is saying, for a paladin with max weapon mastery, the difference in practice would be
    3250 * 3,7 / 2,16 - 3250 * 3,7 / 2,25 = 5567 - 5344 = 223 damage per hit.

    Optimistically, with over 2 hits per second, we can round that off to 500 dps. Sure, the numbers look worse, when you remove all haste, but with a raid neck, and buffs, we have either 216/217 haste, or 225 if we're afforded a bard. For those who can't get their haste up there, they get a little extra benefit.

    I think it's still worth investigating how the damage bonus is affected by quick time or other spells that reduce the effective weapon delay. Quick time reduces weapon delay by 15%, which would make it 3250 * 3,7 * 0,85 / 2,25 (assuming you have a bard there) = 4542 or just over 1000 dmg less per hit. Valorous rage reduces delay by 20%. If you have both bard and valorous, that's 3250 * 3,7 * 0,8 / 2,25 = 4275 or 1300 dmg less per hit. If we round up to 3 hits per second, that's 4k dps during a burn where I've been seeing around 800k on my undead parses.

    Of course these numbers would look completely different if the calculations were based on just the delay, but we're still getting a bonus of more than we paid for (3250) as long as the weapon delay is above 20 - and the game is "balanced" around its current behaviour. Would it before more fair if it was something like damage bonus * weapon delay / 2? Less damage if you're less than 100% hasted, but more damage with raid gear and buffs?
  11. Riou EQResource


    It is known, HHE doesn't effect it :p, neither do skill attack bonus things that do a -x second reduction

    The DPS you get is basically similar with the linear to haste scaling at all base-positive haste levels, any HHE is basically bonus DPS from it comparatively

    Slow is where you start being effected since it has a 10x cap (bash will get hit first, then normal melee on knight weapons around a like 70% slow effect on you, anything beyond and you hit cap and lose the DPS from it)
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  12. Jokskilove Palzerker

    Great, thanks Riou! Not sure I understand the part about slow. Could you provide an example?
  13. Riou EQResource

    At 37 delay if you get slowed by 65%, your 10.5s delay would be capped to 10x boost
    Jokskilove likes this.
  14. Cadira Augur

    Wtb fixed internally sign next to thread title, pst.
    Daedly likes this.
  15. yepmetoo Abazzagorath

    Fix options:

    1) Up the damage cap to 8x level after level 100.

    2) Lower the dmg to be under cap and lower delay commensurately, need to do this to TBL ones too honestly though as they are also affected.
  16. Jokskilove Palzerker


    No thanks to faster weapons. I want slower weapons to minimize the effect of spellcasting and increase the riposte dps.
  17. Bederper Journeyman

    Does this 6 * Level Cap limit affect Zerker weapons too ? I think hammer is 687/36. Augs will take the base damage over the cap. Would people have noticed the shorter delay axe and spear parsing better if the hammer is similarly capped ?
    eepok likes this.
  18. Ngreth Thergn Developer

    That is close to the plan (the level is different... but it's in this spirit ). This is a code fix, so it is out of my hands.
    Any weapon. This is not a class specific issue. THOUGH 687 is bellow the 690 cap (at level 115)
    Hellowhatsyourname likes this.
  19. Morigaine Lorekeeper

    With this being confirmed and a code change proposed, is there any chance this is implemented before the next live patch?
  20. Ngreth Thergn Developer

    It looks like the fix will make it into the patch, but since it is a code change I'm not the final word on this.
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