Top raid dps classes

This actually is part of the point. Warriors in generally can tank as well dual wielding 1h weapons as going S&B. We have a few warriors who are still of the S&B mindset even though we've shown parses with warriors dual wielding tanking just as well.

Yep I agree.

People can defend tanks all they want but, honestly, those classes should not reach numbers that dps classes are reaching.

I wouldn't argue that point Windance - but running lean vs rich raid crews makes a difference, too, so different guilds will choose different approaches. And, yeah, old habits die hard!

Ah, just because you do not like my opinion, does promote me to a hijacker. Your first post was only about that you do like the DPS balance in raids. What is you agenda about if there is any ? What you call my opinion is a bit more than just an opinion, as I am long enough playing and watching the game and it's evolution.

Raiding was very famous for a long phase over many years, but that star has fallen. So many raid guilds just vanished, and modern small expansions don't have much new raid content anymore. Multiplayer experience groups are pretty dead too. Fact is, that it is nearly all about boxing and moloing now, and the devs do focus on that, which is not a bad idea. The team is just to small for something extraordinary as in the past. The fat years are over, and raids were the peak of the fat years. A symptom of luxury and a flourishing game, and everyone including the devs were proud about having and being part of a flagship.

But raids were also EQs downfall, because class balance and the group game, which were the root and the core of the game, got out of focus. Fact is that the game started with group content and not with raids. Afaik, raids were never part of the original concept, and were a pure coincident. Everything, including the classes, got originally developed for group content, and not for raids. However, more and more raid content got added to the game, starting as early as with TRoK, and maybe reached it's peak with PoP, which was clearly developed with a strong focus on raids. Much more raid content followed after that

You are to much focused on yourself I think. How many raid guilds do exist, and how many players do exist, that do not raid, and that never raided at all... in many years ? The raid community is a paralel society inside the game without much contact to other players. Raids can even be seen as a separate game inside the game.

It is both: Opinion and facts. I have a vision, but I have also called the current state. You seem to be happy with the current state (of raiding), which is why you have no interest in a change. You have not named much visions beside buffing the ranger's DPS for raids. But the game has more content to offer than just raids and DPS, which is all you are focusing onto. Sorry for destroying your illusions about the status quo. ^^

Now it is obvious that you do have a problem with the word "should". You just want to keep the status quo without any big changes. You have no visions, and you want to block other people's visions. You want that other players do only agree with you, just like a dictator. You even want to ban the word "should", which does show us how cranky and narrow minded you are.

Thx for you invitation to a new thread, but there is no need for that. Your thread is already perfect for that. You could start a new thread by yourself if that does make you happy. Veni, vidi, vici.

You need to take into account every guild has different levels of kill times and event to event times. In slower guilds some classes might be #1-3 whereas in a extremely high end fast guild they're realistically #7-10. So one class might be great in another guild and mediocre in others. There's other factors as well with ADPS, lower raid attendance, etc.

I'm not Sancus but here's the secret:
Give SK/Wars all the ADPS you can spare, have them pop dragon glyph on pull and then pretend they are dps for the rest of the raid.

There you go, maximized tanking and adps. Seriously. If you're in a guild with long kills, use defensive only after glyph fades to fill the 5 min gap, then pop it again.

Some red flags to help you realize if your tanks are bad and don't understand the modern game: they wear a shield most the time, they stacked HAgi instead of leaning into Hdex till at least the mod2 cap, they are wearing softcap AC augs

For better or worse, the content doesn't require maximizing tanking abilities. The point is that the tanking needs of a raid can be fulfilled (i.e., at times, tanks are actively tanking) while allowing tanks to maximize DPS.

As others have noted, current raid content is very easy and tanks have a lot of survivability tools. Taken together, that means cleric-padded tank groups of tanks with shields out are antiquated. You can give tanks full ADPS (bard, shaman, beastlord) and make tank groups and melee groups effectively the same thing. If they are SKs or have SK epic (a group effect) running, their self healing will increase as their DPS does, and either way Shaman are very strong healers nowadays and, with this many Shaman in the raid, you'll have an extremely high volume of AE healing.

There are, of course, specific tanking roles (e.g., kiting) that don't allow for pushing DPS. Very few guilds are sitting 100% of their clerics on farm or, alternatively, have the melee ADPS roster depth to have every tank group fully supported every single week. Nonetheless, a number of guilds currently are putting tanks in a position where some of them are also making it into the top 10 on DPS parses, and they are able to fulfill tanking needs at the same time.

@Galvanize and Sancus - this is really useful info and I appreciate the level of detail you've both offered, thanks!

The key, it seems, is finding ways to help established players adapt to new realities, rather than blindly clinging to 'shoulds' and older realities - that themselves were no doubt adaptive at the time.

Yeah anytime there's posts like this the class fantasy people come out of the woodwork, or people who have a picture of how EQ was 10-15 years ago and haven't adjusted to current stuff. Some parsing on target dummies, and basic looks at incoming DtPS will show almost all mitigation is via discs+dragon glyph, and proper burns / class synergy in group results in huge damage numbers

Unless we're out of buttons, there is no reason not to dual wield. We almost always have something running that will make the difference between dual weld and sword and board irrelevant.

This thread is a reminder that Glyph of the Dragonscales should be removed from the game.

You gave me pictures. Woodwork, elves, woodwork, elves ... here they come:

The question is, will anything ever change. "bringing others up to the same level" doesn't work, because that would mean making every single dps class 30% stronger than wars/SKs.
The only reasonable change is to set the outliers to the level where they should be.

Otherwise, my mage pet should have perfect AE agro and comfortably tank 3-5 things without an issue, and me in my silk pajamas shouldn't turn into street pizza the moment I get attacked. Tanks with the same adps as a dps class shouldn't be able to compare, otherwise all thiose tanking abilities should be shared with everyone else too.

It should always be wizard. I don't care about what other classes think, you have too much utility. Wizards lost a lot of utility due to PoK portals and modern clickies. Make up for it with better nukes, not with more complex rotations.

Main pet, gargoyle, host of elements, servant of ro, etc.

yea.... any tank who is intimidated by a mage pet is categorically a bad tank who either doesn't use his abilities or doesn't understand how to.

Many players do complain about wizards above lvl ~110. Not sure where their problem does start, and if there is really a problem with wizard DPS. To me it seems more that other classes are OPed, instead the wizard being weak. It is only relative weak.

The class does face the same problems as BER and ROG, but with even more disadvantages: Worse tanking, and maybe also worse ADPS. NEC/BST/MAG are OPed because of the strong tank pets, and because they can also heal: DPS + tank + heal. Because of that the wizard would deserve the best DPS. Burst DPS, but also over a long duration like ROG/BER, which would mean mana efficient DD spells with the most possible damage per spell. Not micro DD nukes like the MAG, which is annoying to play vs high HP mobs.

The classes have to be redefined and rearranged, to make balance possible at all. Clear roles and the right balance between advantages and disadvantages. The game does not need OPed classes, which can replace multiple classes/players and even full groups.

Ports should become more usefull for WIZ and DRU again, and a lot other stuff. Damage shields are way to weak below RoS, for MAG and DRU, maybe even up to LS. DRU is such a constricted class. Cannot really do anything right. No good heals, no good DPS, no good buffs, mana unefficient, just a weirdo. Does need a clear role which should be that of a healer. A healer/DPS hybrid ? Ok, then boost heal and DD spells and make them more mana efficient (just by boosting their dmg / neg dmg) !

The interaction between mercs and all the different classes has to be analyzed. Mercs could be a good tool to help with balance and should not be ignored. It was a mistake to grant every class, every merc type, without any restrictions in power. Some classes do not need mercs at all (NEC/BST/MAG), or only a very weak healer merc for more QoL. These classes were supposed to heal their pets by themselves, but now mercs are doing their job, which resulted in way to much DPS.

Complexity is another issue that had grown over many expansions. About all classes have way to many similar spells and AAs. Just to name a few:

ENC: Way to many similar mez, charm, and stun spells.

NEC: Way to many fear spells. Maybe also to many similar DoTs.

SHD: Way to many lifetaps and self buffs.

DRU: Way to many heal, snare, and root spells. Self only and relocate port spell lines should be merged.

WIZ: Way to many similar DD and AoE nukes. Same problem with port spell types as the DRU (self only / relocate).

MAG: Way to many DD nukes. So many different sand spells that are not needed. Also way to many summon spells including pet toys. Convert the monster summoning spell line into pet illusions or a more powerfull/usefull pet type !

If mage pets are so great, tell me why most groups usually have a real tank?

People waste their time farming augs and gear for a tank. They should just buy a pet earring for a mage and they would get the same results when it comes to tanking ....

ssshhhh to much reality for the bad tanks out there. And by bad, I mean really bad if a mage out performs them.

Not going to lie, but the realization that an EQ player in 2024 thinks Servant of Ro can fully tank a current expansion trash mob made me laugh out loud.