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ToFS Raid 1 Difficulty / Mechanics concerns

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Mazame, Apr 15, 2020.

  1. Smokezz The Bane Crew

    New to EverQuest raiding?
    Duder likes this.
  2. enclee Augur


    Nah, Mearatas mechanics just got my hopes up.
  3. Syylke_EMarr Augur

    So, I think we can mostly summarize this thread as: These changes were done poorly, and at the wrong time, and did nothing to increase the difficulty of the event, only the tediousness.

    Of course, I think we can probably change the expansion name to Tediousness of Velious :p
    enclee likes this.
  4. Whulfgar Augur

    You must not have played durring the arx mentis expansion..

    You wanna talk tedius??

    Some quests required up to 18 hails.. just to further along the dialogue.. to get to the next step of a quest..

    THAT.. was tedious.
    Elyssanda and Triconix like this.
  5. Triconix Augur

    I don't agree often, but this I will agree with.

    And 18 hails? I think you're lowballing it a bit. I definitely remember some task updates with 20+ hails just to have another task update with another 15-20 right after it.
  6. Aueman Journeyman

    Yep - We just recently went through this on phinny. Some were 3 steps in a row with 8, then 10 and finish with 8 more hails.
  7. Syylke_EMarr Augur


    Hmm, *checks my post*... Nope, I didn't say ToV was the most tedious expansion.
  8. Axxius Augur

    Bad RNG is when you have too many mobs of one kind and too few of the other kind. Then you end up having to wait for the latter to spawn, and killing the former does not harm the boss anymore. You didn't have bad RNG. Every single mob you killed changed the boss hp. It's all in your own video.

    Bonus points for telling your raid that 'many people on the EQ forums believe that it's impossible to beat before the enrage'. Exaggerate much? Why do you say things like that when you know it's getting recorded? ;)
    enclee likes this.
  9. enclee Augur

    It’s possible that it’s more efficient to kill a few non-restless just to keep the momentum of the raid. Rather than running it flawlessly and waiting for the right round of mobs.
  10. Maedhros High King

    I must not understand what bad RNG means then.
    I thought people were talking about having non-restless mobs spawn instead of mobs that they could kill to lower the Heart. We had quite a lot of non-restless mobs last night. To me, that's bad RNG.
    Based on your comment, you believe the only way we can qualify as having bad RNG is if we kill a mob and it does not cause the Hearts hp to lower?

    With the current settings for how many of each mob type can count toward lowering the Hearts hitpoints I would be shocked if it was possible to kill a restless mob of any type now and not have it count towards lowering the Hearts hitpoints. The bad strat it would take to pull that off is kind of mind blowing.
    It would take 15 specters to reach the limit, and a combination of 35 dogs and skellies to reach that limit.
    The only way I can imagine that scenario is if a guild is ignoring specters and only killing dogs/skellies, or they are killing only specters and I guess just off-tanking dogs/skellies.
    If a guild is actively dpsing all 3 restless types, the only bad RNG that can currently likely hurt them is having non-restless mobs spawn.

    As far as me saying what I did about "many people on the EQ forums believe that its impossible to beat before the enrage" I suppose that was an exaggeration. Unless people are closing their eyes and putting their fingers in their ears, and screaming, then they should be able to see the replies in this thread with at least a few guilds reporting that they have indeed beaten it under the enrage timer. Please don't try to tell me we have 14 pages about this event and there are not quite a few posts about the topic of how difficult it is to beat this before enrage and that for many guilds its not possible, and that they are hitting enrage while the heart isn't even close to 10%.
    Perhaps my statement in Teamspeak should have been "there are many players from many guilds that are reporting on the EQ forums that they have been unable to beat this event before the enrage timer and even though we had a bunch of non-restless mobs spawn tonite, and we killed a few non-restless mobs, and generally performed very sloppy, we were still able to get it down before enrage".
  11. enclee Augur


    The bad RNG people are talking about are continuing to roll the mob types that have already reached the limit. I agree though it can be bad RNG to have a rounds of spawns dominated by non-restless mobs.

    In your attempt as outlined by Axxius, your guild didn't notice RNG because you killed a couple non-restless. This let all your restless kills do damage to the heart, but if you had done it without error you would have still finished in the same amount of time.

    So, would you say an event is properly tuned if you can make mistakes but finish faster or at the same time versus a run that you follow all the mechanics based off RNG?
  12. Maedhros High King

    I think it's safe to say that what the top end guilds consider properly tuned is totally different than what the middle tier and lower tier think.
    I don't believe that in its current form, that people hitting a limit on any of the restless mobs is even a thing.
    *I* think The Heart of Frozen shadow is perfectly fine in its current form.
    *I* think Til death do us part is tuned fine, but needs the Ire of the Bride bug and whatever the hell is resetting the event at the start fixed.
    *I* think Tserrina is fine for a 2nd tier boss but I would like some kind of wrinkle in there at sub 40% like we were supposed to get.

    Ultimately *I* do not like a whole lot of tuning once an event hits live servers unless it is to correct bugs.
    *I* feel like that should be completed during beta.
    Chopin.Xegony likes this.
  13. enclee Augur

    You’ve literally experienced this during your attempts.
    Szilent likes this.
  14. Triconix Augur

    We literally have not experienced it. The only thing we experienced is what seemed to be a high amount of non-restless mobs. This could have negative effects on the raid outside of just not having the correct mobs to kill. IE increasing the chance of someone accidentally killing a non-restless and therefore healing the Heart.

    The fact that you can do 70 of 90% of the Heart's hp while completely ignoring the shades means you would need astronomically terrible luck in order to get to enrage (or your guild is just pretty slow dps). Again, last night we had confirmed non-restless deaths which meant we had to kill way more mobs than what is required and still didn't get the enrage timer. That's now two weeks in a row where we've done that. Last week we had something like 5 minutes left before enrage. This week 2ish. So far that's an average of roughly 82% of the allotted time allowed is required for us to win the event. 18% wiggle room on average so far is an ample amount of time.

    Cleaning up our mistakes, I see it being incredibly hard - especially top tiered guilds - to hit enrage timer consistently by just having bad RNG. Needing only 20% worth of hp from shades to reach the desired goal should not be too common.
  15. enclee Augur

    You did, but you're killing the non-restless so you're not experiencing the negative impact. You were already going to have to kill the "unnecessary" mobs, as you were waiting to hit the right numbers between shades, dogs, and skellies.

    If you cleaned up your mistakes, your completion time would've been the same. Your event was a fixed number of rolls based off the most limiting mob type. This is the issue with the event. You have very little impact on your outcome. You can have higher dps and achieve more rolls, but there's very little impact from killing a non-restless.

    For example, if your event rolls 18 shades before hitting the limit on skellies and dogs that's 3 extra shades you were already going to have to kill. You can kill 3 non-restless and see no negative feedback on your run. The design of the event isn't rewarding good gameplay or penalizing bad gameplay.
  16. Triconix Augur

    No, you are moving goalposts at this point. Initially, you said we didn't experience bad RNG because restless we killed counted. Now you are backtracking and arguing we did experience bad RNG because we got restless mobs to spawn. So which is it? Did we have bad RNG or not? And if we, in fact, have bad RNG that means we had it two weeks in a row, leading to the conclusion that with bad RNG, there is PLENTY of time to win the event before enrage.

    False. Clearly you don't know how the event works if you believe this. Killing non-restless mobs heals the heart meaning you have to go back and kill more than the minimum amount of mobs required to get the Heart to 10%. That means more time wasted. Not killing them would have shortened the event
  17. enclee Augur

    I’m probably getting trolled at this point, but for the last time the event takes as long as it does based off of having enough to rolls hit the required number for your most limiting mob type. In that time frame, you can have an excess amount of shades spawn or dog/skellies.
  18. Triconix Augur

    And how does healing the Heart by killing non-restless mobs mean it would've taken the same time? By healing the Heart you are potentially adding waves/rolls just to get back to status quo. What exactly are you arguing? If we have the heart at 20% and kill a non-restless and it heals to 24%, we now have to kill even more mobs just to get it back to where it was prior to killing a restless. That means more waves/rolls wasted and more time elapsing.

    Regardless, the foundation of your argument is that bad RNG = hitting enrage timer. By your [change in] argument, we had bad RNG two weeks in a row and have not yet sniffed the enrage. Completely making your argument of bad RNG = hitting enrage timer null and void.
  19. enclee Augur

    Flip a coin until you get 5 heads and 5 tails, then tell me how many of each you got. It’s how this event works.
  20. Triconix Augur

    Still not answering how healing the Heart doesn't increase the time of the event.

    You are allowed up to 15 Shades (need 5 minimum)
    You are allowed to up 35 Skeletons/Drolvargs (need 15 minimum).

    I'm going to argue your luck would have to be astronomically bad to not get 5 restless shades to spawn in an 18-19 minute time frame.