TLP Monk myths?

Finchy · Aug 22, 2017

-wycca said:

“We're in GoD now, with OoW about to drop in under a month. I'm usually assuming a raider point of view on this, and it's also a bit different now than historically given so many changes (too numerous to list). You also need to realize that after years of arguing for monk changes and discussing class balance with devs, that I came to view pulling as not a different category from CC, but as just another aspect of CC. All the methods of CC (in camp and out), include mezzing, pacify, memblurs, de-agros, FD, roots, snares, highsun, and even slow & AE agro. When you realize this, it's easy to see how monks fall short in comparison to a class that can do more of these, or do the more useful ones faster.”

Agreed, I usually speak from a raider perspective as well. I as well view it as a form of CC for the most part, I also consider it an art form to be able to pull as a monk efficiently early game pre SoF/SoD. Sure with the changes that have been made over the years there are other classes that can be put into group makeup to void the need for a monk to pull. That's not the point I agrue/disagree with.

-wycca said:

“Basically, if your group is strong enough or has enough overall CC vs. the content in question, pulling is more a function of simply dragging mobs to camp in an efficient manner w/o taking undue dmg. In some cases this means a snare or root class can be superior, in others it may actually be the weakest class in the group is the best puller (I'd much rather have a monk in camp dpsing in those circumstances). At some point vs. the content, or if you get far enough long in gear make-up, you can simply pull almost what you want and rely on some ae slow or mez and just plow through mobs (some really great groups with epic 2.0 shd's + some combo of shm/brd/etc come to mind when pullers are 5-10 mobs np). Obviously this all fluctuates expansion to expansion, but you're also not likely to find a group with no slower, and then you already have at least one decent CC slot in the group.”

I do not disagree with this piece either. As mentioned above certain group makeups don't require a monk to pull non stop, however, that's not the point i'm disagreeing with. I'm simply saying no class can consistently pull non stop mobs into a group like a monk can, outside of a bard. I have mentioned before, bards get the ability before monks do, but i've been on TLPs since they made the change to ID and Fade so not sure how that effects the utility itself.

-wycca said:

“Earlier on, if you MUST split mobs (and other CC methods arent optimal or enough for safety), you've basically got a few choices. FD pulling of some sort (a monk is more optimal given instant FD here, but sometimes shd/nec have an advantage due to snare), pacify pulling (only useful if its not immune and/or higher level), and some form of CC pulling. Then in PoP you add on bard fade pulling. FD pulling is typically the safest method and will work on any level of npc in any zone typically and monks are the best at FD pulling pretty much. It's not always the fastest though, but as always that depends on zone, group, etc.”

pretty much agree with this across the board.

-wycca said:

“Generally speaking, the need for monk FD pulling in content was diminishing over time - they began to build the group game for friendliness in many ways starting in OoW and this translated into zone design, and the raider gear curve started elevating enough above group content also. As speed became more of a draw (or we hit content anyone could pull (ie delivering mobs to group only)), monks began to lose utility relatively, and this was an even larger gap when you look at CC group slots overall as part of the picture.”

at this era, yeah i would agree monks were struggling to pull their weight. There were only a few I knew of at the time that could hang with the changes being delivered. CC in other fashions was becoming a common. Speed (physically running) was a challenge due to the mobs innate speed

-wycca said:

“The overall CC picture amongst classes was part of the argument made for more DPS or pulling enhancements for monks each expansion, and in the end is what prompted the Echo of line - a way to speed up monk pulling and put us back in a stronger CC niche along with bards in certain circumstances (single target wasnt cutting it). Ironic in light of your original response to me, I was involved in it being made as I was pretty much the Monk class rep at the time in the CL program (not to say it was necessarily my idea (I honestly cant recall) or wasn't discussed on forums before).”

can't agrue with the facts . echo line was one of many to follow items provided to monks to allow us to keep up easier, ultimately allowing us slight advantages over time. I do recall your name involvement, fortunately your guild had a louder voice than mine. I voiced opinions and concerns, some were heard, others not so much.

-wycca said:

“I'm not going to say I was the best pulling monk in the game ever, but I did play one for 10 years, did have a part in many disc/AA/itemization/etc facets of the game over many expansions as a monk CL, and I've grouped with a ton of great monk pullers on RF & Phin. Monks are probably the best well-rounded puller to put in the slot on TLP for quite awhile, but I'd probably be willing to grab a good enc, brd, or shm in that slot as well, because as I said above, pulling is really just another form of CC, and other classes can shine at CC overall more than monks. As content design changes more going forward, I forsee some of the same things popping up as we experienced "back in the day" with diminished monk pulling utility. Luckily monks have great dps on TLP and can easily fill that niche as well.”

overall I agree with most of what you've stated. The disagreement is more so directly related to their ability to pull, not if it should be used or not. I've also played a monk pretty much my entire EQ career. I mained one from classic through CoTF, missing very little content. I then came to TLPs where I again mained a monk, and I will say, the changes made over the years really stand out on TLPs. There were a lot of things I didn't think about, or even consider until coming over here. In addition to the changes you were involved in, there were quite a bit more between SoD and CoTF that I believe pushed monks well over bards for pulling. Again, I haven't had the chance to play around with the changes to ID/Fade, but reading over and talking to a few monks that still play on live it doesn't seem as though it would change too much.

Respect for a sound post.

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TLP Monk myths?

Finchy Augur

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TLP Monk myths?

Finchy Augur

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