Tides of Time - Missions - Level 60 Bracket Rebalancing required

Hello Developers, The level 60 Bracket for Tides of Times needs some rebalance. I don't know if you saw the previous post in the TLP section - https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq...loitation-the-only-way-to-complete-it.298820/
I attempted for 2 days to do them with friends, but it's just not possible without using the cheese strategy people do with persona's

First things first, all the keys were fairly achievable (I do think you need to have the spawned mobs de-spawn after time, maybe 30minutes or 1hr, when I went to do the key in gfay, the orc Broken Key of Forests Quest - https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/quest.html?quest=12891 - the Orc Slaver part had about 30 mobs stacked up on top of each other from people failing it, I had to do mine in a Pick zone)

All of these missions need their monster levels revisited.
When Requested at 60, the monsters are level 59,60,and 61.
They all hit about 3 times a round for up to 500hp.
Warriors around level 60, with 255 STA and full raid buffs land at about 6k Life.

I imagine these were designed for all players to enjoy and are group missions, not raid geared missions, so while you want them to be some what of a challenge, you don't want them to basically require raid geared characters and perfect group compositions to be able to complete. That being said, there is a lot of damage coming in currently, (especially with mission 5 Oasis of sky when you are rushed by 6 mobs at once, that's upwards of 8,100 damage in a round, and even with an enchanter you can only mez 1 target for the first 24 seconds.

Bards can only mez up to level 55 with Song of Twilight - No recast time - https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=1753
Enchanters can only mez up to 57 with Glamor of Kintaz - No recast time - https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=1691
**TECHNICALLY** Enchanters can mez up to 2 level 61 mobs (24s recast) with Rapture - https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=1692

Baseline for AE's at level 60 -
I am going to point out some level 60 raid fights in Kunark, Velious and Luclin, so you can get a baseline for RAID LEVEL AoE's that go out, so you can really grasp how over tuned these AE's are for GROUP content.

Kunark Examples:
Gorenaire - Freezing Breath - 750 Direct Damage - 70% Slow - (-150) Cold Resist Adjust - https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=845
Trakanon - Poison Breath - 1,200 Direct Damage on Cast, 150 Damage over Time - (-150) Poison Resist Adjust - https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=857
Nexona - Stream of Acid - 500 Direct Damage, 500 Damage over Time - (-150) Fire Resist Adjust - https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=838

Velious Examples:
Lord Koi`doken - Tsunami - 400 Direct Damage (-100) Cold Resist Adjust - https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=1484
Dagarn the Destroyer & Eashen of the Sky - Wave of Cold - 350 Direct Damage (None) Cold Resist Adjust - https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=1489
Dagarn the Destroyer & Eashen of the Sky - Rain of Molten Lava - 400 Direct Damage (-100) Fire Resist Adjust -https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=1488

Luclin Examples:
Khati Sha the Twisted - 400 Direct Damage - Tortured Memory - (None) Fire Resist Adjust https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=2206
Lord Inquisitor Seru - Torturing Winds - 300 Damage Over Time - Unresistable - https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=2061

Example for the extremely over tuned comparison...
Plane of Time - Tallon Zek
Barb of Tallon - 1,250 - 2,750 Direct Damage Randomized - (-100) Cold Resist Adjust -https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=2449 https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=2449
Bard of Tallon - 1,500 Direct Damage - Targeted AE (50 Range) - (-100) Fire Resist Adjust - https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=2450
Barb of Tallon - 1,750 Direct Damage - https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=2452

A lot of these examples vary in difficulty, some zones most guilds don't even do (Nexona in VP For example, other guilds don't do Gorenaire (but that's more or less the loot isn't worth it on a non random loot server) These Missions were targeted for group content, not raid content. Some of these Missions are doing AE's worse than the hardest boss in Plane of time, level 65 Raid Content that some guilds struggle on for weeks.

Now onto the numbers I saw in the mission, and the experience:

Mission 1 - Oasis of Sand - https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/quest.html?quest=12865
I think this missions difficulty was hard, but we were able to do. At max you had 2 mobs at a time, each mob hitting for 500hp. We had a bard, and he couldn't CC the add as it was as pointed out before, above lvl 55, so the tank had to tank both mobs at once, and we just focused the one down. Took a lot of mana on healers part, but we were able to do it.

The boss has 1 single target damage proc that hits for 960HP (with a -900+ resist adjust...), and a AoE spell that hit for 850 damage. I think these were both tuned down already because I remember on Oakwynd they would do 25k and 1 shot everyone. If you want any priest class to heal this fight, and not just cleric, the damage on the AE's is too high.

Mission 2 - Oasis of Lava - https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/quest.html?quest=12882
I don't mean to be rude, but the AE's on this mission are insanely over tuned. You fight the 1 mob in the room, and it's AE's alone destroy you, again hit's hard, and on top of that it has adds that, again, Bard can't mez, and Enchanter could mez 1.

There were two AE's
An Unresistable Directional 2.8k AoE (Hello Tallon Zek, how is it going?)
And a 3.7k Single Targe (Fire) DD -- (atleast this has no resist adjust, but.. a lvl 60 group taking on DD's hitting harder than Tallon Zek from time...)

Our Bard was running Elemental Rhythms with Selo's drum, and we had resist fire on, not a single time did the DD resist.

Now you add on the boss hitting 3 times a round for 500, and then it's 2 adds that (if you bring enchanter, 1 can be mezzed, otherwise nope) for 500 3 times a round as well.

This group content mission is not possible at lvl 60 even with raid gear group

Mission 3 - Oasis of Forests - https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/quest.html?quest=12905
This mission, the first few parts were fine, but then when you get the boss, the thermagist, it's literally impossible.

He casts a 1,000 Damage - Unresistable AoE Direct Damage - frequently (so now you need a cleric or paladin for the group heals, or you will die within 15 seconds, Good Luck finding groups druids/shamans unless you are DPS roles)

He casts a 1,800 AoE Damage over time -- Yes... Each tick... 1,800 damage
What makes it worse, is the Dot, has a recourse effect, of healing him for 1,000 damage per target, per tick.

So now you have everyone in the group taking 1,800 damage every 6 seconds you need to just keep spamming Word of Restoration (at 900 mana a cast) - https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=1521 or your group will just flat out die.
On-top of that, the boss is healing for 6k damage, so your group needs to be doing more than 6,000 damage every 6 seconds, or he remains at 100% life.

Raid geared clerics can cast that heal about 5-7 times depending on mana pool and their preservation specializations (or later AA's)

This mission is straight up not possible.

Mission 4 - Oasis of Frost - https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/quest.html?quest=12919
This mission wasn't terrible to get to the last boss. Again we are dealing with just mana intensive heal intensive 2 mobs at once. It's like fighting 2 sebilite protectors at the same time since you can't mez them (unless you bring an enchanter specifically).

I thought this fight would be actually achievable when looking it up, and other than mission 1, it is probably the closest one to being achievable with a group at 60. That being said, the Spells again, are over tuned.

The Undead Basil did 2 Spells ontop of his hard hitting melee
Gut Stab on allakazham appeared to be a single target spell, but it was a 968 damage AoE with (-100) Physical resist adjust (What does that even mean?)
Brutal Stab was a single target spell that was un-resistable and did 857 damage

After 2 attempts of spamming Word of Redemption, we gave up. We had to redo the mission in-between as we couldn't get back in to rez as he would just charge us, and one of the members was so frustrated they left so we had to kick it to get our corpses out (Which, why don't the corpses spawn in front of the door... they spawn behind the door you can't go through, one person had to eat a death. I guess they could have found a necro to corpse summon). Please copy the code from planes of power that pulls all corpses to a spot after 15 minutes.

Mission 5 - Oasis of Sky - https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/quest.html?quest=12932
This mission was a joke and we quit. After all the other upsets, we decided we are not going to invest our time trying to gather information when you literally get bum rushed by 6 mobs that hit for 500's and can't mez them unless you had an enchanter (then you would be rushed by 5 mobs and still die within 6 seconds)

Short of someone with healing aggro running circles in the room with selo's, this just didn't seem possible.

End of the story...
Someone made a level 2 mage, and did them all, and bought us the gear.
The fact that it wasn't tuned to do it in the expected method, but a level 2 can go in and just literally pet attack and finish them in 12 seconds... It was very disheartening.

Please fix the content you made so we can enjoy it.

Remember, this event is designed to be group content, others have said they solo'ed it all as a 95+ characters and it's super easy... but apparently it is not scaling properly at all, unless... you are level 2

I ran these all at 60 over the last 2 days. 2 and 3 need a scaling adjustment for levels 60s. As the OP said, there's no strategy that will overcome what these aoe's are capable of. 1,4,5, and 6 were able to be handled after a couple of attempts.

I probably tried 3 like 25 times and never even came remotely close to bringing him down.

It's not just 60 even doing them in the 30s and 40s is ridiculous, oasis one is doable, lava and forest is impossible, I tried doing steam last night at 46 and it was basically impossible too. 400 aoe with -200 physical resist check.

Lava at level 26 was doing 300hp aoe dots with 400 ST nukes on tank when I had like 1200 hp on my warrior.

The damage is impossible to heal through.

Are we waiting for the dev on the server to hit 60 and try these to get a bump in status?
Not sure what other information you need provided.

I agree with the post, even though some of these will eventually perhaps become doable in a few expansions, it won't be worth the exceptional difficulty compared to just using a level 2 persona or buying the gear. At least it's very easy with a buffed level 2 persona, and the gear is very cheap because of how easy it is. However this overall makes the TLP experience worse because there is gear that is out of era and extremely powerful, but getting the gear is a big let down of an experience.

Tune the content to make it achievable for a group of level 55-60s on Teek, which is thousands of people and perhaps the majority of people doing this tower. Then make the mobs a minimum level of 20 so that cheesing it with a buffed level 2 isn't the best way to do it. The downside of the tower on Teek would at least have been softened if doing the tower was a fun event, but the tower was just a frustrating and annoying event as well. Overall it has become a major negative impact on my enjoyment of Teek.

The thing is, the tower was balanced for max lvl 60. That is not teek yet, because lvl 60 in luclin gear with a bunch of AAs isn't the same as lvl 60 in kunark gear and no AAs. Lots of trash in ssra hit for 400s for example.

An Unresistable Directional 2.8k AoE (Hello Tallon Zek, how is it going?)
And a 3.7k Single Targe (Fire) DD -- (atleast this has no resist adjust, but.. a lvl 60 group taking on DD's hitting harder than Tallon Zek from time...)

Read the post, it wasn't complaining about the melee.

You are delusional to think it is tuned for 60s on live, most 60s on live are wearing level 20+30 defiant as you level so fast you out pace the drop rates, and people aren't farming low level defiant to sell on bazaar. Even then, I don't think a group of full live 60 gear would live through it, ontop of that this is group content, not raid geared group content. Live level 100s can solo it.

Can confirm it is trivial for group of level 90 and 95s as well. Yet below it's harder than any raid unless you have some extremely out of era twinkle gear it's impossible. Even with the 55 tower gear it's still impossible.

Mission 3 (Oasis of Forests) is particularly egregious. Our group was able to do 5/6, but this one is just brutal with the AOE dot that lifedrains. We got him down as low as 11% on various attempts, but not able to finish.

and the orc resets his life if he moves 3 feet off of his spawn point - kinda wrecks any tower attempt when that happens.

I can only assume this issue is being completely ignored even though other issues with dev comments / tags added have less likes.

Proves the like system is flawed.

The difficulty of the mission is not a bug, so I am moving this thread to the Veteran's Lounge. The issue with the spawned NPCs not spawning is being addressed and should be in the next game update.

A reminder for bug reports to focus on a single bug/issue per thread to allow us to easily track and update the thread on the progress of a fix.

So the mission being unbeatable on max level characters, on the most popular server, isn't considered a bug..... Lol, great developing.

Could you provide some reasoning for it not being a bug? A monster doing AOEs for more than Planes of Power Tallon Zek seems ludicrous for a "fun event" on a Kunark era server.

Are you aware the the best way to do these missions is with level 2 characters? Could you confirm that this IS what you had in mind when these were created?

I hope you understand that this is the reason people do not care enough to make bug reports. OP puts in all this work for HIS HOBBY, does tons of looking up stuff, and makes a well laid out post. Meanwhile the best you can reply with is a 1 line post with ZERO INFORMATION and it's YOUR JOB. Absolutely unbelievable.

Understood, the event is supposed to be difficult.

So surely you are going to make all the gear require to have be completed at the level of difficulty the gear is? So you can only wear 55 gear if you did the mission at level55+? Or are you just ok with it not being difficult if you swipe past it and get persona, to basically spit in the face of your "intended to be difficult" since they are giving you money.

Darkpaw was tone-deaf on the events ruining newer servers, the least you could do is make so your "difficult" event is difficult. Not paywalled content like a trash phone game.

That's not helpful. It might not be a coding bug in your terms, but it needs fixing by, guess what, changing the code. I assume there is some scaling algorithm in place that just doesn't work as it should. Tweak it. Or bring this up to the right folks instead of just moving it out of your bug forum. Thanks.

Then please explain how mobs in a mission on a TLP server casting PoP-level raid spells on players with Kunark era gear is NOT a bug. Your response to the issue is as tone deaf as your response is to just about any other issue that gets reported.

No, I don't play on TLP servers, but I DO play this game. And how you handle issues in this game, whatever they may be on whatever server, IS of interest to me. Because if you're just going to look the other way on something like this, you'll look the other way on just about anything.

Something appears to be wrong with the scaling, and instead of at least doing the bare minimum of investigation of this issue (hell, the players have already done most of the work for you), you just dismiss it wholesale and essentially told players to "git gud".

That's an absolutely awful response.

So group mobs doing 3500dmg/tick DoTs is tuned properly at level 60?
When, without tower gear, level 60s have about 2-3k total hitpoints?

I was able to complete all 6 on 60's with group gear.

I do believe 3 is not possible to beat unless you have a lineup tailored to beat it. I probably wiped at minimum 30 times before finally putting a plan together to overcome the aoes. Even as someone who managed to beat it, I think they definitely could be toned down a bit (3 more than 2) but the devs obviously disagree.

I think the bigger issue is that they can be cheesed with the low level mages, which makes attempting it higher levels mostly pointless. You end up giving top tier loot to players that require them to spam pet attack for 20 minutes. These shouldn't be nearly impossible at one level range, while being laughable at another.

Yes, it is not a bug. The tables we are using for the level adjustments are targeted at live servers. These tables were made years ago before the progression servers really took off. They are tuned as they were intended. And, because I know someone will ask, the system doesn't allow us to have a live server version and a progression server version.

That simply means it is not a bug.

It does *NOT* mean it is not valid feedback. We are looking at this valid feedback and making changes.
We are going to start with spells because I am leery to touch the NPC melee damage. I may change my mind on that.

We are altering the spell damage curve so spells will do less damage in the level 60 range (we "pulled" the curve down, so the adjustment is to more than just 60, but, it is also a curve, so... differing amounts of adjustments at different levels. But the level 60 example is: it was doing 3.014 % spell damage, the change has it doing 2.217%. (The curve is used on spells targeted for Heroic Adventures, it adjusts the damage in the base spell data to a different amount according to NPC level)

We will also be adjusting the spells themselves, lowering the damage and adjusting the spell resist. We will be using the "max resist" option instead of a set resist modifier, since the resist modifiers do not scale :/

Since this is veterans lounge, I will also mention that we found an error in the spell damage curve above level 120. The damage actually went DOWN over 250%... we are fixing that as well. so the 221+ Spells will do more damage.