This next patch will almost be like Christmas time!

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Metanis, Feb 12, 2018.

  1. Sagarmatha Augur


    They (ugly forum troll babies) are whining about DRUIDS now?

    It's never for, "balance," or, "the good of the game," as they all claim. It's because the UFTB's (see above) got a their wittle bottoms hurt when they didn't pewpew the top of the parse when, THEY are a, "real" DPS class. Give me a break.
  2. I-WANT-IT-NOW Elder

    Did not realize we had this many tide pod eaters playing everquest. Rationalize away anything you want, its broken.
  3. Warpeace Augur

    I could fully support that;)
    Tiggold likes this.
  4. Natal Augur

    Sustainable is not really the point. Most times you don't need sustainable, average dps will do. Being able to do massive dps for a short period means that critical encounters have to be tuned for that happening, and that in turn means that every class that can't do that sort of dps is screwed in terms of being able to do that encounter.

    For example, if you are killing a named, it can be critical to burn it down really fast in order to make the encounter trivial. If class X can do that, the mob has to be made difficult enough such that if class X is present the encounter is non-trivial. But, that means that if you DONT have class X present, the encounter is borderline impossible. That creates a balance issue, because most times you are not going to have class X present, and what then? Should other people simply not be able to do it?

    That is the issue with abilities that permit extreme burst dps. While it is great for class X, it makes content really suck for everyone else, because the game is balanced in such a way that they simply can't do the content involved.

    The same argument applies to any ability that a specific class has that turns a particular encounter into a trivial thing. In order to make it non-trivial to that class, it has to be extremely difficult/impossible to most other classes.
    Jumbur likes this.
  5. Jumbur Augur

    And that is why we have a manaburn-immunity-list. :p
  6. Kuvani Journeyman

    The amount of inconsistencies and inaccuracies in this thread is kind of astonishing, and not all of them can be addressed in one single post. So naturally, I’m going to attempt to address every single point made in one single novel of a post instead of 10 short posts. As a few of you know, I really have tried staying out of most of these druid threads since it’ll probably just make the situation worse than what it already is, but I’m pretty sure the devs are aware of the change that caused such a massive DPS increase anyhow. Plus, most of you really do sound like a spoiled child throwing an unreasonable tantrum to his/her parents in hopes of receiving the “ultimate Christmas present.” I’m not just throwing this statement out at anyone who may disagree with my point of view because I do think there are just as many druids with unsubstantiated arguments.

    I do admit that there is at least some validity behind some of the claims regarding current druid DPS; however, most of you begin to allow bias to pervade each of your posts, and they become less and less valid as the thread grows. I, personally, am not going to throw other classes under the bus to make my point because I have always felt that calling for “nerfs” in this game are silly and petty (although I do admit that I am quite tempted to throw a few classes under the bus based on some of the ridiculous claims like “a tank cant decide he wants to heal like a priest” or “druids can out burn or out sustain anyone at times”). However, I do want to address the “at times” statement. “At times” is quite possibly the vaguest and poorest argument you could make. If that’s the argument we’re going to make, then how about this:

    <insert any class> can outheal/outpds/outtank <insert pure DPS/healer/tank class> “at times” by simply “giving up some aspect of the game” even if said class is not intended or perceived to do said role.

    For example, an equally skilled paladin can “out heal” a druid (since we’re apparently pure healer) “at times” when the paladin isn’t tanking, an equally skilled ranger can “out tank” a warrior “at times” if the ranger is not DPSing while the warrior has a 2H out, and an equally skilled shadowknight can “outdps” a berserker “at times” given the right ADPS. These are just a few examples, and I am not trying to take these abilities away from these classes or throw them under the bus. My point is they’re ridiculous arguments, but they’re very similar to many of the comments in this thread. I find that context is often amiss on these forum posts.

    Also, for the record, a skilled or “clever” druid is not “100% of a dps class while simultaneously healing,” and this is not me justifying what we can do by any means (I’ll get to that), but it is also inaccurate to say that we are bursting and sustaining for more than every pure dps class while healing. There are substantial drawbacks to a druid properly DPSing in many cases. I would be more than happy to further argue this point with anyone as I understand how to actually play a druid against equally skilled players in almost every other class.

    I can say with absolute certainty that outside of dots, druids have very little going on for them in comparison to most classes. I wasn’t aware that the majority of the people playing this game are experts at playing druids. I realize that druids are a blend of many classes and are the “master of nothing”, but over the years we have been molded into what most people expect: a pure healer. Or at least, this is the perception that has been molded although our heals do not come close to clerics, shamans, and even paladins. For the sake of synergy and because technically our “archetype” is priest, this obviously makes sense during raids, but that does not mean druids should not ever be doing DPS. From the beginning, druids had some of the best DPS right below pure DPS, and that was absolutely intended.

    As of now, druids are, without question, the worst of the healers. We also have horrible nukes and abysmal mana returns. We are able to provide ADPS to the raid but not nearly as much as a hybrid class. Do not get me wrong, this is absolutely fine, and I am not complaining, but just because druids have heals and have been molded into a caster group healer, doesn’t mean they shouldn’t show up on parses at all. We are not supposed to be the equivalent of a cleric mercenary. In a perfect world, where DPS structure is exactly how it should ideally be, if a raid does not require healing from druids (and there are definitely plenty of them), a druid should absolutely be able to compete with at least hybrids. I am absolutely not trying to take away abilities from other classes or stating that another class should be nerfed. I am simply stating that druids should be able to DPS on par with a hybrid and just below a pure DPS class if they give up all healing. After all, that is the intention of the druid class. Just because druids have been under the radar for so long because they weren’t showing up on parses, and just because no one really cares about who has the best or worst heals, doesn’t mean a druid is a pure healer that shouldn’t be able to DPS. I see no issues for certain classes being able to perform another role for a short amount of time under the right circumstances to perform a different function, especially if their class was intended to have those abilities anyhow.

    Tell me, if druids aren’t supposed to DPS ever or show up on a parse ever, what exactly are druids providing during tier 1 and most of tier 2 raids (and honestly some of tier 3) in ROS if they cannot DPS, aside from the occasional black wolf and debuffs? I can answer this for other priest classes. Clerics always need to be healing as they are in a tank group, and that is all they have. Shamans have always been primarily a buffing/support class; they provide constant and active ADPS when they are not healing melee (who require more heals than casters for the most part, which is why shaman heals are far superior to druid). As for druids, we are given AA that caters to healing and DPSing equally. That is how it has always been because druids are supposed to be able to fill multiple roles, but even though druids are given the option to DPS well, the perception is that we should not, so I suppose druids can all just sit around in a circle, hold hands, and sing about animals while watching the mobs around us die if we do not need to heal. We’ll try and make some time to click black wolf and cast our debuffs. We might even avoid goos or emotes, if you’re lucky. As far as group content goes, druids are far from being overpowered in the group aspect of the game. I’m shocked I even need to bring that point up, but it’s an argument that has been made multiple times, so I am addressing it.

    Let me make two things clear before I proceed. I am absolutely not trying to get any class nerfed or saying any abilities should be taken away. More importantly, I am not justifying priest and enchanter DPS as it currently stands, but some of you have gone way too far with what you are saying or you’re just factually wrong. For the most part, without dots, druids are one of the worst classes overall. As far as raids go, I admit our DPS is absolutely higher than it should be with dots, but at the same time, our healing needs buffed for when we do have to heal, and on top of that a druid should be able to at least DPS below pure DPS classes if we are able to give up that healing. At the moment, it is very difficult to keep a pure caster group alive (without a necro) in most of the ROS raids with our abysmal cast/recast times and healing utility, and when we do not have to heal, our DPS is too high. Druids need to be completely retuned. It is not just a dot thing, but I realize that this thread was about dot damage primarily.

    With all of that said, I can finally address these dot changes. I play a druid, and I work very hard to play her at a very high skill level and do not want her to be nerfed obviously. Naturally, most classes aren’t going to call out for their own nerf, but truthfully I do think that priest and enchanter dot DPS should be decreased. The biggest issue is that the base damage for druid, shaman, enchanter, beastlord, and ranger dots were increased by 65% in ROS while other spell lines were only increased by 21% (these are not accurate to the decimal place, but they are rounded to the nearest whole number). Although I obviously wasn’t going to make a post about this when ROS came out, I do play my druid to the best of my ability and often DPS on raids when appropriate. By doing so, I made it very clear that druids were boosted in some way when parses were posted. Clearly this situation is becoming the next big thing, so instead of listening to people continually bicker and whine, I’m writing my own novel to address all these posts.

    Again, I do think the aforementioned percentages regarding dot base damage should be scaled back some (I’m pretty sure the devs are aware of this now anyhow), but I also think that there need to be changes to druid heals and nukes as well. I’m a high-end raider and therefore very well geared, and I complain about mana as well as healing, so I sincerely empathize for the druids that are group geared/under geared.

    TLDR: I think that scaling back the base damage of at least priest and enchanter dots will lower us on the parses without hurting other DPS classes, and it will also help with our insane mana issues. As I’ve already stated, I believe druids should see other buffs after these changes, but that is another issue (I only brought it up to address other inaccuracies in this thread), so I do think for now what I’ve said is a fair compromise as far as dot damage is concerned.

    This isn’t a perfect world. We can all have our ideals, but I don’t think there will ever be a perfect balance in this game between any classes, especially since the roles for grouping and raiding are so vastly different, and people hold many different beliefs concerning class abilities and roles. Asking for a perfect class balance is an impossible task. Depending on how you choose to view it, there are countless inconsistencies and overpowered/underpowered aspects of this game.

    Regardless of what is to come, I will play my druid even if her DPS is nerfed to the ground and she goes back to way below the radar for DPS and healing once again. What’s even crazier is that I won’t try and get other classes nerfed because they have far superior utilities and abilities than a druid. Why try and hurt other classes their ability to play the game or help out your own guild/group? I can be an advocate for my own class without burning bridges with other people. The fact that certain classes can solo VP named, or certain non-priest classes can vastly outheal a druid, or a tank can outdps most pure DPS isn’t going to make me throw them under the bus or cry for nerfs consistently.

    In general, “nerfs” are normally called for based on a few people’s experience and bias rather than fact, and in case you were unaware, experience isn’t gospel. More often than not, nerfs are not properly implemented and/or end up hurting other classes instead of the intended class. On top of that, do you guys realize that (depending on what is important for you) asking for another class to be nerfed only hurts your raid or group?

    I really think that people should try and be more logical and unbiased in their posts, but I think that asking for that is actually asking for the real “ultimate Christmas present.” It’s really quite sad to see people bickering and jabbing because their own ego has been hurt by another class or person, and then to make up for that, people make baseless and biased claims to call for nerfs to try and make themselves feel better. As a side note, between all of the anti-druid threads, it makes me sad that many, but not all of the complaints, especially the vicious ones though, have come from ROI or Valhallah. I can say that I would definitely never make and have never made the type of posts on the forums about your classes that you have about mine, especially based on one person, because your own ego was bruised. Just remember that everyone has their time to shine in this game, some more than others, but we all get to see the limelight at some point.

    I realize I wrote a novel, and most of you won't read all of it, but just some food for thought, friends :)
  7. Millianna Augur

    Sustained DPS is essentially expected average DPS. It’s arguably the ONLY DPS number that matters. With more and more encounters having some sort diversion tactic, you have to pick when to go full burn.
  8. Peltier Lorekeeper

    LMFAO ! !
  9. Cloudia Augur

    I'd toss more chum out, but I'm not sure which of his accounts to address as he seems to be posting from several of them in turn.
    Sheesh I never knew I was one of the top healing classes while outburning a wizard, knitting socks for the needy, and getting my nails buffed.
    Guess it is a good thing I came to this thread to get edjumactioned.
  10. Fohpo Augur

    I love how Kuvani wrote a novel, then gives a TLDR and that is just another chapter. Well said though, comprehensive and thought out.
    Sancus likes this.
  11. Venau Augur

    Wasn't gonna weigh in but OMG Kuvani's book made me do this.

    2 cents from a totally and completely biased necro:

    1) I WANT to be surrounded by as much burst as possible. It'd be sad to see a certain DD/DoT removed from a druid's arsenal. It seems like this tool increases in in value and looks more OP as the quality of one's surrounding cast increases. The more quickly a guild defeats an event....the more skewed the parse will be. Example: If I were ever privy to a RoI parse I'm sure it'd look different than a more average type guild that consistently clears expansions with their raid force. So...such parses (or rumors as to what they are) should be viewed in context. Let's face it: A more average type guild will benefit from the aformentioned DD/DoT.....when used strategically while considering the entire picture....not the least of which is the mana cost. I've seen a few better than average druids have to "let off" due to reasons that include the length of the event and mana cost. It'd be great to keep this tool in game for Druids. And I think it's kinda silly to call for a nerf because the clear minority of raid forces' parses may show crazy numbers.

    2) I am/was a bit ******** that my DoTs didnt see quite the increase I'd have wished for. At first....I seeekritlee hoped for a massive, across the board priestly nerfage. To me, at least, this no longer makes sense. At least not a massive game altering change. Perhaps a decrease in base damage and mana would be great for the majority of druid DoTs. But I sincerely hope the often commented upon DD/DoT remains exactly as it is. Kudos to those of you who take the time to cast it under certain conditions that produce the best results.

    3) Drakkin Druids look cool especially if they have blue spikes protruding from their faces.
    eqgamer likes this.
  12. Fohpo Augur

    MS is recruiting druids, class stacking confirmed.
  13. svann Augur

    Got up yesterday morning and rushed out to look at the christmas tree but.. no presents!
    Sat in front of the fireplace all day and Santa never came.
  14. Sissruukk Augur

    Hopefully today being Valentine's Day, we can get some love.
    gnomeboss likes this.
  15. Bamboompow Augur

    Most don't.

    Some druids just unilaterally make that choice to not heal much and primarily dps, especially if they are in a caster group. Sure, they could assist heal the tanks, but where is the fun in that? As long as people are not dying, than great,.... I guess? If a druid is number 2 on a parser for dps and there were lots of deaths that were healing related, some druid should be looking forward to a "Come to Jesus" talk. Its not like the evidence won't speak for itself.
  16. Skvoid Lorekeeper

    Kuvani, I don't think a single person has asked for druids to be nerfed so they do terrible DPS, they just want them toned done a little so they can't consistently top DPS parses on raids. I would be happy with Druids been with say 60-70% of a what a pure DPS class can do while still healing and providing buffs, debuffs and ADPS, which they do very well as well.
  17. Tiggold Augur

    Weren't you a Berserker like two months ago Kuvani? ;)
  18. Fohpo Augur

    Man, that'd be a lot of AAs to grind every few months when something else is FotM. Progression through the years would get tiresome.
  19. Smokezz Augur

    People whine entirely too much. Holy !.
  20. fransisco Augur

    I Worry for the druids. When certain people get it in their heads they are victims by a caster class, they don't stop and for some reason, the devs ALWAYS listen
    GoneFission likes this.

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