The state of monks causes a lot of problems for every other melee class in the game.

Discussion in 'Time Locked Progression Servers' started by WokeCat, May 24, 2021.

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  1. Nicorus Elder

    It is a combo of the fist ratios but also the fact that the disc changes and creation of the innate damage aa that all melee get benefited monk on tlps the most by far. People who played fippy will remember monks were good but not the current level of insane on there.

    Fist ratio wouldn’t even really fix the issue because as people mentioned monks do use main hands.

    They need to tweak the innate aa probably for all melee to not start until Luclin or PoP. This would balance melee much better in those eras.
  2. Kylo Classic Augur

    Where did you get your tables from?
  3. wade_watts Augur

    "current level of insane"

    Raptorjesus5 likes this.
  4. Lejaun Augur

    IKEA, sometimes Ashley's Furniture.
    Accipiter likes this.
  5. Ultrazen Augur

    The state of enchanters makes every other dps class in the game irrelevant.
    The state of clerics makes every other healer in the game irrelevant.
    The state of SKs makes every other tank in the game irrelevant.

    See how easy this is? Show us on the doll where the monk touched you.
  6. jiri_ Augur

    Monks also got the strike/kick separation, though that should absolutely stay. Fist ratios has the advantage of not affecting Live, as far as I'm aware, or other classes.
  7. Skuz I am become Wrath, the Destroyer of Worlds.

    Yeah no zerker love in them eras at all. :(

    I would like to congratulate the OP though, after trying too hard for about a dozen threads he finally landed on one that has the potential for an actual debate to occur instead of just 100% derision for being a blatant and overtly obvious troll.

    Your skill at Forum Trolling has improved a lot in a week, there is promise for you yet.

    Class Balance in "Pre-TLP era EverQuest" was done through development of the following expansions or by way of stagnation of abilities - aka getting smaller improvements in the next expansion relative to other classes.

    While Triconix has a very valid point that was how things were done in the past and that most of the imbalances do improve in later expansions this is now a new era thanks to TLP servers & TLP players are justified in asking for class balance changes that are seriously out of whack to get addressed and Monk is a clear outlier that should be addressed.

    Monks are simply overpowered for the levels 50 to 100 on TLP relative to other melee, Rogues are underpowered in relation to other melee and they should be rebalanced, the problem is why they are OP in those levels is due to the power-creep that affected all classes in EQ on TLP.
    For melees and especially Monk the innate damage aa were too strong, they got reduced in the 1-80 range but are still too strong so the reduction was not large enough the first time around, conversely with Rogue damage being largely tied to their backstab abilities they benefitted the least from the innate damage aa - that's why they seem weak.

    However with caster players crying about having spell foci restored they need to accept that if melee are ever going to get better balance they need to accept that spell foci need to stay inactivated until Luclin and they may need to accept their spell tables having their damage lowered back to being closer to original table values.

    TL;DR - Everyone has to embrace the fact that power creep being addressed probably has a price for their class too. If you refuse to accept that your class may also need balance changes you have no right to demand them for any other class.
    Niskin likes this.
  8. Larsen Journeyman

    I have never understood why they don't simply revert to the original damage table on TLPs. It seems like such a trivial thing to fix. Instead they have these obscenely non-classic monk fist ratios that completely destroy class balance for all melees. It makes no sense whatsoever.
  9. Xhieron Elder

    This is fundamentally true, but it will fall on deaf ears like it always has.

    That said, the fear that DPG cannot be trusted to not wield their balance powers like a sledgehammer is very valid. I would be surprised to find anyone who genuinely thinks TLP rogues are in a better place than monks. That's just not an accurate description of reality. Unfortunately the issue is whether the cost of correcting course is one we want to bear. Even if we concede that balance is wildly askew, do we really want to roll the dice that DPG can get right what twenty years of other teams could not?

    Obviously monk mains don't want to be nerfed--just like enchanter mains--but the age of preferring a balanced game over an immediately fun experience are probably behind us. No one expects monk damage tables to be revisited because it's a 20 year old game. We all appreciate that it's fragile, and any effort to improve it carries the risk of collapsing the tilted house of cards that keeps enough people coming back every few months. No one's likely to leave the game over monks being OP, but a non-zero number of monks would in the event of a nerf announcement.

    We all know that once the quarterly on TLPs sinks below the threshold they'll pull the plug. Our days are numbered. So given the choice between playing an OP monk or enchanter on what might be your last go-round or suffering a minor inconvenience for a game that's healthier for the long term, EQ players will choose their own personal power--just like they always have.
    Skuz likes this.
  10. Yeroc New Member

    This is why wow classic servers are on another client, you can change one and not change everything
  11. Yeroc New Member

    All they need to do to fix ranger is remove now dead zone. Off topic but I read someone mention ranger buffs let us kick and use our aas so our class can do what people want it to do.
  12. Nicorus Elder

    Whichever route they go, either tuning down the fists or tuning down the innate AA for melee it won't matter much for live. The mechanics themselves aren't different they just need monk fists and AA to not move to the upgraded versions until like lvl 75 and no issue between TLP and live.

    I actually somewhat trust daybreak to make a change to monk damage without anything insane, the charm changes for chanters were measured and left chanters as still the best but not by as much of a margin as before.

    @ranger issues, there is nothing really wrong with TLP rangers. Kunark is the worst xpac for rangers but they are still OK. Anyone who thinks ranger sucks is just a P99 player who doesn't realize this isn't P99.
  13. Drak New Member

    Why don't Shamans and Druids complain about the heal per second of Clerics? Because they understand they are Clerics.
    wade_watts likes this.
  14. OldTimeEQ1 Elder

    Why is this obsession over that balance holy-grail? Atleast EQ (in TLPs for a whole bunch of expansions) doesn't obsess over making every class solo friendly and basically make them all generic like some MMOs out there.

    At release, and for a long time (and still now), all classes were and are not "balanced".

    Just play the TLP knowing a lot from the past 20 years are in the TLP, enjoy seeing people in classic zones etc. People don't get in lists for Aviak tree groups in SK etc, now in TLPs. Just FYI.
    wade_watts likes this.
  15. Nicorus Elder

    Silly argument, probably from a monk. Clerics were the kings of healing in this era and shaman and druid had other elements in their toolkits outside direct healing that helped make sure they were still good classes. This is original to EQ. Monks on the other hand received one huge buff in 2008 and another in 2015 that made them really OP when you wind the clock back to classic.
  16. MischiefMaker New Member

    You mean won't
  17. WokeCat Augur

    I actually agree with you that Enchanters could use some nerfs. However, most Enchanters are not able to use Charm in a lot of raid situations, so groups and guilds still need other DPS classes.

    Shadow Knight is arguably the worst tank, but the tank classes are all balanced enough to where it does not matter. Warriors are still required for the hardest content, and Paladins who aren't tanking can still heal a raid. Shadow Knights who aren't tanking can do what ... exactly?
    Shamans are some of the best solo'ers in the game. I have an easier time solo healing on my Shaman than I do on my Cleric unless the group has an Enchanter in it. I actually prefer having a Shaman healer over a Cleric for exp groups.

    Druids are great at solo'ing, can teleport, have some of the best utility buffs in the game.

    Clerics are absolutely terrible at solo'ing and bring little utility. No movement speed, no stat buffs, no invis etc.

    Again, this is a good example of how all 3 healing classes are balanced.

    You failed pretty terribly at it actually. You want to explain to me how Rogues are balanced when compared to Monk?
    Rogue VS Monk
    Monk is Tankier
    Monk has Feign Death
    Monk has Mend
    Monk deals 3-4 x as much damage.
    Monk has no positional requirement
    Monk does not require high-end weapons to deal insane damage

    Rogue has Hide/Sneak. Monk has Sneak.

    What advantage does the Rogue have exactly?
  18. WokeCat Augur

    I literally main a Cleric and have a Shaman alt. After leveling my Shaman I've actually told every young Cleric main that he would be better off leveling a Shaman and twinking a Cleric if he really wants to play one.

    Shamans can actually heal most non-raid content much easier than a Cleric. With a Shaman you don't even need a real tank, which gives your group a lot of flexibility. With Cleric if you don't have a Tank your group will likely fall apart. With Shaman you don't need an Enchanter. You have your own slows and cannibalize is a great substitute for Clarity. As a Cleric if you don't have an Enchanter you're going to be hating your life. Constantly OOM, and without slow, adds completely overwhelm your party.

    So yes, most people are fully aware of the fact that Clerics may be the best raid healers, but lack in every other department. Some would argue that this is called balance.

    In fact I would actually argue in true classic EverQuest that most people considered Rogues balanced by the fact that they were top DPS but could not solo or do anything without a group. Monks were not top DPS, but were great pullers, could tank, could duo, and even solo. This was a great balance.
  19. WokeCat Augur

    Imagine playing a Rogue 20 years ago. You were a rare class, and it was rough to level because you could not solo. Your damage was not great because you required good weapons, and you weren't a twink so for most of your life you were out-damaged by tanks who had easier access to better weapons.

    One day though, you finally got high enough level to do your epic, and eventually you got double backstab, and suddenly you went from being the most useless class in the game to being a top tier DPS class. You were still useless in every other situation. You could not solo. You weren't the best at pulling. You weren't even a tank and you had no utility. If you accidentally aggro'd a green-con mob that ran fast, you just died.

    However, you were still a top tier DPS class and people loved having you in their groups because of this. It felt so balanced and rewarding. You tell your WoW friends about how unique and weirdly balanced Rogues were in EQ for years, because you had never seen another class that was like this in any other game.

    You learn about TLP during the pandemic, but it's too late in the timeline for you to really be interested in playing. Then suddenly you learn about Mischief, and you get so excited. You're finally going to get to re-live that Rogue experience you had 20 years ago. Except you're actually not going to get to re-live that because they are no longer a viable class.

    And when you ask why/how this is even a thing, you have an entire community attack you and wonder why you would want to play the class you played 20 years ago without being irrelevant. It's like Rogues kept everything that was bad, but they took away their damage.

    I'm not asking for Rogues to out-tank Monks.
    I'm not asking for Rogues to have feign death or mend.
    I'm not asking for Rogues to have their positional requirement removed.
    I'm simply asking that Rogues at least be as viable of a DPS class as they were 20 years ago to make up for everything that they lack.

    And honestly Monks being tweaked like this affects a lot more than just Rogues. I plan on playing a Cleric on Mischief, but I still have a need for balance. It's going to be extremely boring for me to be on a raid and be like oh man, this really crazy Ranger weapon just dropped, it's so good:


    I should be allowed to get excited that this weapon just dropped in my 40-man raid. Especially on a server where all items are trade-able. However, that's going to be really hard to do when I realize that Monks are dual wielding Mithril 2 handers in each hand.

    And this doesn't even go away with Kunark or Velious.

    As someone who also played a Monk too, part of what made Kunark so amazing was that we went from having no weapons to suddenly having some of the best weapons in the entire game. I remember being a kid and day dreaming about getting a Knuckle Duster, Jade Mace, Tranquil Staff etc. and now it's like.. why would anyone ever equip any of those? Monks should be allowed to get excited over weapons dropping too.

    It's surreal to see this level of backlash for simply wanting to get to experience Classic, Kunark, and Velious the way they were meant to be experienced. If Monks are going to have 23/26 fists, you might as well release all new TLPs in PoP because there's essentially no reason to play any melee that isn't a Monk unless you're taking one for the team and playing a Tank for your guild.
  20. Kumiko_Lockjaw Elder

    After what you said, i should play monk as my brother does.
    But i will still play a rogue. Im so stupid.
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