The reason fast exp/easy gameplay is killing each tlp

Discussion in 'Time Locked Progression Servers' started by Rothj, Feb 27, 2019.

  1. Rothj Augur

    There is a pretty common pattern with each tlp, at least for me - people come, play a few weeks, get a decent level or max then come back next expansion. Then the tlp slowly bleeds out players until the next one launches(usually around pop). Classic everquest servers do not HAVE to die out like this. P99, though hated by live eq players for some reason, is an example of where the population is still healthy after 12 years of being up with only 2 expansions.

    I believe the main issue is that there is no feeling of accomplishment on TLP and also that the content is burned through too quickly. People are saying the exp is faster on mangler compared to Agnarr like this is a good thing, but what is going to happen is that players will either hit 35, 50, or get decent gear and quit the game(whatever their boredom point is). Then they will resub for a month in kunark, go 50-60, then quit again.

    The way classic eq is designed is that most of the content is 1-20... you are supposed to get stuck around 20, reroll and do it again. This is frustrating but the struggle is what keeps people wanting to keep trying. Corpse runs, no maps, difficult combat, etc all make the game feel more immersive and difficult to level. People say these things only add time but it's not true because these things forced you to not make errors and if you did you are punished for it. The lack of easy/fast gameplay makes you have to think for yourself instead of going on autopilot which is actually fun.

    Honestly, I will roll selos - for about a month. Then I will go back to league of legends or p99 till kunark launches on mangler which I will then play for about a month. Then I will play p99 till the next tlp(if it comes).
  2. Mozza New Member

    Why you not play on Coirnav? Great server for you :)
  3. Rothj Augur

    I played on Coirnav briefly in luclin. Coirnav has the same issues as every tlp. My point was that even faster exp is not going to make things better - the core problem is a lack of a long term feeling of accomplishment. It will just be even worse this time as the core game play on classic tlp servers is not engaging or rewarding enough to make people want to do it over and over.
  4. Sandrito Elder

    He's right, it's so dumbed down to the millennial instant gratification model that its boring after a short period. Its not just this game, its society as a whole.
    Ishbu and Venthos like this.
  5. Doranur_Aleguzzler Filthy Casual™

    I stopped playing the TLPs for a number of reasons, none of which was what you listed.

    * Mage bot armies hording all the camps, regardless where you were or the item you could get there.
    * Not finding a social group in a reasonable time so as to level up socially, rather than solo.
    * Not being able to keep up in levels, and ending up saying screw it, because in order to even approach a reasonable amount of xp gain I would need to spend real cash to buy XP pots.
  6. snailish Augur

    Most of the very large guild I was in on the Vulak server quit when Kunark opened sooner than they were ready for.

    They didn't want slower XP or death penalties, they just wanted the eras to last longer.

    Some of them found happiness on Ragefire/Lockjaw (early issues with mage armies deterred some for sure), others on the compromise of Phinny.

    Of that group, you have those that always quit progression by certain eras... that will be hard to overcome (and launching a new server may be more successful at retention of subs).

    Until they offer a long unlock, AOC and so on server with normal to good XP... hard to judge if this population niche would in fact play longer. I think they would, just not sure it would be that busy of a server.
  7. Kloodge Elder

    >P99, though hated by live eq players for some reason, is an example of where the
    >population is still healthy after 12 years of being up with only 2 expansions.

    Being free may have something to do with that.
    Grogak likes this.
  8. Rothj Augur

    I partially agree, but I also disagree because I feel other factors balance it out. It's a private server and it is difficult to install(getting titanium). This turns off a lot of people from ever trying it or playing it. In addition, it's a 12 year old server. Most people probably have a high level by now with nothing else to really do. I think the fact that it's still maintaining a population at this point with no new content is pretty amazing. The other thing is, the frustration of corpse runs and slow exp DOES make some people quit... but the people who love it become more loyal to the server and stick with it because it has more long term appeal.

    I feel nerfing all aspects of the game to make it easier is a reason why tlp's cant hold long term populations.
  9. Stagentti Augur

    I get your points here but...

    Not costing money to play definitely is the biggest part of it.

    EQ (and non-MMOs) are not special in that regard.
  10. Rothj Augur

    If they made a new p99 style server that I had to pay for, I would play it over the current iterations and would never look back. Live eq is technically free, people can play it and farm till they get a kronos(though difficult, they can). If you think that p99 being free is why tlp's can not hold a stable population the problems will never get fixed, eq will get shut down, and then p99 will be the only version of eq left to play(cause no one is gonna play live eq private servers, or tlp versions of eq).

    My prediction is that this latest batch of tlp will fail hard after a couple months as the model we have right now is not sustainable.
  11. Krosus New Member

    So, the OP's point about people coming back for a few weeks, if you see the amount of AA's needed for underfoot on Phinigel which I believe is still an 8 week expansion because of no level change.
    As a Paladin I need 1500 aa's in 8 weeks to max out, in SoD it was 12 weeks for just under 1000 aa's lol. It will just get harder and harder to stay relevant without crazy playtime.
  12. Stagentti Augur

    That's great. I'm glad you would pay. But that's you.

    Like you said live EQ is "technically free". Doesn't support your argument.

    Thousands of people play on the new TLPs. That's a hard fact.

    You're assuming the same # would come pay $, when they currently pay $0, for something similar if DBG did it.
  13. Ceffener Augur

    You admitally are only going to play part of two expansions.
    The server you want already exists, and if free to play.

    So just play P99, DBG is not creating classic emulated servers. They have shown no desire to do so, they have stated many times they are not making changes to effect live like that. And the playerbase they are consistently successful at making money from have made it clear that slower XP is not what they want.

    So P99 got an official blessing, remains free, and you no longer have to fear being shut down by DBG everyday. So if it’s such a great paradise, why come here asking DBG to offer what P99 has. Ask P99 to offer what you want.

    Also if “Majority” of the game was 1-20?

    Newbie yard
    Qeynos Hills

    I just took you decently past 20 in all zones that were high populated, always camped, close to guards and zones lines. Corpse runs were never a big deal. It want hard, it was time consuming. And if you were a cleric is wasn’t even that time consuming because you instantly got into the groups.
    Eangel likes this.
  14. yerm Augur

    This is a strange argument. On one hand you note players would commonly max out and then quit until the next expansion. On the other hand you claim people get frustrated that they failed to achieve all goals in era and quit from that. So if they slow things down to let people finish they will have ghost servers during latter periods and if they speed it up to keep people entertained some other people get frustrated and leave.

    My honest opinion is the people calling for ultra long unlocks and/or slow xp are causing a problem. People need to come to grips with the reality that doing EVERY thing there is to do BEFORE the next unlock and despite low playtime is not a good design. Learn to enjoy the fact that old content stays relevant and you can go back to it unlike wow or its type. The moment you accomplish everything and there is nothing else available yet you become done with the server until it moves, and the ridiculous later-in-era burnout has proven it time and again. The usual suspects you see here crying "too fast" every tlp announcement are also ones you see quit 2 months into an early expansion each time too.
  15. Dilf Augur

    OP thinks the new TLPs are going to fail lol. Thanks for the laugh.
  16. Locnar Journeyman

    Fast xp and easy gameplay is one of the big reasons why these TLPs are such throw-away temporary experiences. Could anyone imagine chain-rerolling on different servers every few months back in 1999? No, because we were invested in our particular characters and in our server community.

    When your character is trivial to level and character power is so inflated that you can skip most gear as you race to max level, there is no character investment or server community investment.

    People are re-rolling on these TLPs every year because its the ONLY way for them to get a hint at challenge that they (and all gammers) subconsciously crave. Only by being thrust naked as a level 1 and then creating a surrogate challenge for themselves (racing other rerollers) can they get their fix.

    If only Daybreak did not fold like a cheap suite on Mangler, and kept it a SLOW xp and harsher death penalty server, it would of been a move in the right direction in curing this old sick man called Modern EQ. People on a true hardcore server would learn (or re-learn for those of us blessed to have played back in the golden age of 1999 to 2004) community interdependence and pride in ones character.
  17. Rolento Augur

    The reason the other TLPs are "failing" if thats what you want to call it, is because they keep making NEW TLPs. They keep splitting the population further and further. I dont think it has anything to do with unlocks or exp gain. But i will say most people on these TLPs have done this at least a few times already. So to grind out exp in Classic at extremely slow speeds just isnt enjoyable or what people want
  18. yerm Augur

    I agree until your last paragraph. People want a challenge, people want to feel invested and accomplished. Easy xp plus endless completion time makes you unappreciative and/or bored.

    I do not think your solution is the fix. Just making it take longer but not be harder is not going to do it, we need ACTUAL challenge. So instead of grueling xp grinds, mobs would need to be tougher. Rather than an xp penalty for death, up either the rez effects type debuff or return corpse runs or an equivalent, to make people actually weaker after dying not merely punished.

    I got a massive thrill out of killing tunat at 65 over a decade ago. Killing a buffed aow or emp or whatever at level 50 or 55 or something like that? Requiring repeated tries, potential failure, etc? That would be awesome.
  19. Risiko Augur

    The attrition on TLP servers will never be corrected because quite frankly there are many versions of EverQuest that are available during different eras of the game.

    Just generally speaking, you have:
    • Classic through Planes of Power
    • Gates of Discord through Prophecy of Ro
    • The Serpents Spine through Secrets of Faydwer
    • Seeds of Destruction through The Darkened Sea
    • The Broken Mirror through The Burning Lands

    The eras can be broken down even further within those listed above, but that's a quick and dirty break down.

    The thing is that the game design is different between the eras. This affect is most noticed when you compare the first era to the current.

    People come in and play the eras that they enjoy of Everquest. Since all TLPs up to this point have started in classic, the majority of the people that play on them from the start are those that enjoy the classic era.

    As the expansions unlock on the TLP servers, the population dwindles for various reasons. I would argue that the main reason is that people don't like the way the game developed over time, and they leave the TLP server when it gets to the era that they do not like.

    I've said before that DBG (and SoE before them) ignores the potential revenue that could be garnered by simply creating new expansions specifically for TLP servers of certain eras.

    DBG fully owns the EverQuest IP and has all the tools to make it happen, but they choose not to do it. Imagine if a TLP server stopped unlocking expansions after Velious, and instead there was a new expansion every year made ONLY for TLP servers that comes after Scars of Velious.

    There would be no reason to stop making expansions for Live servers. Just create a second development team that makes the TLP expansions.

    "Oh but that would cost too much money to do." .... Wrong. there are dozens of servers out there where people are already doing this to a certain extent.

    If one person using 3rd party tools working in their bedroom in their spare time can make new content for their servers, then there is no reason that a DBG team utilizing the actual development tools can't do the same and better. The core of EverQuest can remain being developed by the current team. Hire a designer, zone creator, and artist/animator. In fact, you could even use a lot of the resources that the main team creates for the Live server expansions.

    But, it will never happen because that would require thinking outside the box, and taking calculated risks. It's much more advantageous to continue doing the same old thing over and over until there's nothing left to do but turn off the lights.
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  20. Iyacc Augur

    I agree with some of the thoughts as far as challenge and sense of accomplishment. I don't know if there is a "fix." I think that type of gaming is mostly gone for today's society.

    One thing most of us don't remember is that for the first few years of EQ - there wasn't anything competing with it. Ultima online? Meridian 59 and some other early stage RPG games that let you group with a few friends? After WoW dropped EQ was still popular but every time some big name project was released you lost more people.

    I've come back to EQ a couple of times because of that old sense of accomplishment and feeling but it's all nostalgia. I've enjoyed other games but almost none of them long term. EQ for the most part required more people than many of the newer games do, to be successful on the group/raid scene. That's the part I enjoy the most.
    Gorgol the Ogre likes this.