The real change Coirnav needs: Simple classic to velious balancing

Classic through Velious is extremely unbalanced currently. Playing a melee in classic is painful and basically pointless, outside of tanking raid bosses no one wants you in groups at all. In fact before they let charm pets hold aggro you literally couldn't use melee since they were too much work to heal.

I am an enchanter focused boxer, so these changes negatively effect me.

These changes are designed to be moot past level 60.

Here are some simple, easy to impliment, much needed balance changes that would make future TLPs playable:

Enchanter

• Lower the maximum level on Boltran's Agecie from 53 to 51. Boltran's Agecie now provides 10 magic resist
• Lower the maximum level on Allure from 51 to 45. Allure now provides 10 magic resist
• Lower the maximum level on Cajoling Whispers from 46 to 40. Cajoling Whispers now provides 10 magic resist
• Lower the maximum level on Beguile from 37 to 33
• Increase the mana cost of the entrance, color skew, and anarchy lines by 20%
• Increase the Duration on all haste spells by 75%
• Reduce the slow of Forlorn and Shiftless deeds by 10%

Necromancer

• Lower the maximum level on Enslave Death from 55 to 52. Enslave Death now provides 10 magic resist
• Lower the maximum level on Cajole Undead from 51 to 45. Cajole Undead now provides 10 magic resist
• Lower the maximum level on Beguile Undead from 46 to 40. Beguile Undead now provides 10 magic resist

Magician

• Lower the haste provided by the burnout line by 10%
• Increase the summoning time of all pet spells by 2 seconds.

Shaman

• Reduce the slow of Turgur's Insects and Torgor's Insects by 10%

Warrior

• Increase the maximum defense and parry skill from levels 1-54 by 10
• Increase the maximum defense and parry skill at levels 55-59 by 5

Paladin

• Increase the maximum defense and parry skill from levels 1-54 by 10
• Increase the maximum defense and parry skill at levels 55-59 by 5

Shadowknight

• Increase the maximum defense and parry skill from levels 1-54 by 10
• Increase the maximum defense and parry skill at levels 55-59 by 5

Rogue

• Increase the maximum offense skill from levels 1-58 by 10
• Increase the maximum offense skill at level 59 by 5
• Increase the maximum Backstab skill at levels 1-59 by 5

Druid

• New spell granted at lvl 36: Mists of Tunare. Identical to Clarity, does not stack. Sold in SFG
• New spell granted at lvl 52: Rains of Tunare. Identical to Clarity 2, does not stack. Acquired through Kunark spell quests
• Lower the maximum level on Call of Karana from 53 to 51.
• Lower the maximum level on Allure of the Wild from 49 to 45.

Ranger

• Increase the maximum offense and defense by 5 from levels 1-59

So what does all this do? Reduce the raw power of charming in all it's forms. Reduces the infinite mana that enchanters enjoy (They will still be quite powerful, don't worry). Reduces the strength of slow in making encounters trivial.
Increases the tankiness and damage of melee classes when leveling, Melee classes at 60 will be unchanged.
Grants another source of clarity besides enchanters to druids. Makes druids far more desirable in groups, and strengthens their lack luster soloing ability.
These changes would be easy to impliment, would not be broken, would stop having any effect in PoP and would make the game more fun for the first 3 expansions.
If EQ is going to keep opening TLPs in classic era it should balance classic era. These changes are worth developer time.

Yes! This would make me want to do a VP key again! Vex thal keys? Man if monk dps went down this would be fun again!

Some interesting ideas.

Not sure I have seen the suggestion to trim the effective level of the charm spells before. This could be surgically done... (or undone) rather than some of the widespread global things others are suggesting.

Reducing slows is kind of intriguing, mana cost of spell is high so keeping that worthwhile might be part of the balancing act... otherwise slows are effectively removed from the game (in which case just remove them?). I'm curious to see what others think about this.

Not sure I like farming out mind candy to Druids. Not a fan of many of the class-specific things that have been farmed out over the years, especially in contrast to some that remain restricted. Druids fill a lot of roles already... put a stacks-with-clarity line component onto an existing druid-specific buff I like the idea better.

Monks don't even have a section. Not every thread can be about VP and VT keys. Why are you so worried about them when you never plan to do them again anyway?

The thing is enchanters already have too many class specific things, the most reliable CC, the best haste, slow, charm, memory blur, etc. Theres a huge requirement that a group have an enchanter and then a tendancy for enchanters to want to hang out with... other enchanters, melee get left in the cold.

At the same time druid are not especially desirable in groups. Their class specific things (damage shield and regen) have gotten way weaker over time, their reliable CC (snare) is not super useful and they were originally soloers but soloing is terrible now.

This would allow groups to do without enchanters and would give a real reason to invite a druid other than as a ghetto cleric replacement.

I don't see why enchanters should have the single best buff in the game, and also 101 other things that make them 150% required.

I don't see who such an addition would negatively effect, nor do I think it would make druids more powerful than enchanters or shamans. It would simply bring them more in line with the other casters.

How about we move the clarity line of mana regen buff spells from enchanters to wizards? That way wizards suddenly become much more sought after for grouping and enchanter don't lose enough to affect them in any meaningfully negative way?

-I can see a case for homogenizing slows between enchanter/shaman/bst down. This reflects years of live having most mobs resist or reduce slow anyways. And it would add a tiny bit of challenge to progression.

-if charm is reigned in too much enchanters become a support class that few will want to play. CC is a bit of a lost art as most groups can easily off tank or otherwise park adds... granted we see more CC use on progression than live servers of the past decade+. However, the use of lull type spells alone (which most groups don't bother with) drastically reduces the need for CC in most content. Root parking and the use of stuns also allows for lots of control. Bards can kill at CC, in early content necros can lock down an add and kite 3 others away... toolkits are huge in the under 60 game just because everyone sees enchanters excelling doesn't mean there aren't other viable ways.

-the protection of cabbage/nine line already gives +mana... scaling down a "protection of the jumjum" or such for level 16 and 30s would be a reasonable thing to add vs. just giving druids clarity.

Lulls? You mean the thing only enchanter and cleric has...


I don't think these changes will make Enchanter, Shaman, Necro not the top 3 classes yet again. All 3 will be the strongest single classes, and strongest in a duo classes (with cleric), and by PoP the nerfs will be gone. Enchanters can forget how underpowered everything else is in classic, it's real bad.

It gives 2 mana. Any earlier version would give 1 mana. Half a conc pot. Clarity gives like 12.

Also even in velious with c2 druids would be behind enchanters, not being able to do gift. This combination works perfectly, once they have their own buff at 60 enchanters get additional mana buffs (and the all too powerful KEI).

I don't see why groups should not have clarity until luclin without an enchanter. At some point we have to accept this game is not classic and just balance it a bit, instead of clinging to some false authenticity of enchanters being OP as (and I play enchanter...)

Give it to wizard and druids and remove it from enchanters entirely until KEI. it, do it, lol.

I'd considered some sort of nerf to monks, maybe -5 hand to hand from 20 to 40.

Protection of the cabbage is listed as +6 mana per tick...
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=20280

so a level 16ish version could easily be +2, 30's be +4. If this stacks with clarity it's a significant power increase for casters (that use there mana) which alone might be the argument to not do it (no more power increases on early progression).

Lull is also paladin
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=9083

and undead version is sk/necro
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=347

and animal version is ranger/druid... and arguably should be shaman/bst as well
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=9872

so really druids/mages just need lull summoned (fear summoned was almost put in game) to flesh out there summoned tool kit

a mez animal line may make sense too, it's the missing piece of the "animal focused" toolkit.


too many changes at once to one class makes it hard to judge the effectiveness of each tweak. For enchanters that means not trying to take a bunch of things away. Reducing the effective level of each charm spell is really interesting as it makes content more challenging without gutting the tactic --as long as it is done carefully... need to be able to charm something in level appropriate zones.

Silly recommendations...

There is no benefit to anyone... this is coming from someone who played a "melee"....

What melee are you talking about, BTW?

Tanks... always find groups.

Monks, bard... groups aplenty.

Rangers and Rogues... sure Rogue DPS is a little off but they are still solid... rangers. Early rangers have a mix of tools... you can put them as tanks for all classic-kunark. DPS dead middle over some classes...

No class is useless in the hands of skilled players...

This all day long...

Are people actually taking this thread seriously?

not really. its like reading the bullet points of some random server at this point

All of these changes would not matter past 60. Suggesting that Enchanters wouldn't remain totally overpowered with these changes is silly. The only people "not taking this thread seriously" are enchanter dual boxers who don't want their classic - velious fun ruined.

And fair enough, but I had my fun boxing and abusing charm, I'd like to play actual classic EQ, especially if we're gonna have a fresh TLP in classic every 12-18 months. You could implement all of these changes easily and it would not make enchanters weaker than rogues. Not even close.

Lol, no.

A rogue pre60 is complete garbage. Even with epic and a full set of kunark raid gear a rogue isn't even worth grouping with. Rogues don't ever surpass monks and don't become group worthy until luclin.

Tanks in classic are not worth grouping with. Period. There's no reason to invite a tank or a melee in classic or kunark at all. You're better off with a full caster group. Any skilled enchanter will tell you the best group is cleric + 3 x charmer + bard + shaman/mage
The massive disparity in power in classic needs to be addressed. Having half the classes be garbage for 9 months every TLP isn't fun or interesting, nor is sitting alone dual boxing cash camps and not wanting to invite people and having to share my loot.


No melee are not viable in classic. In Luclin sure, they become almost preferable to casters. Which is why these changes stop having an effect at 60.

I'll defer to vets for some of the bigger changes you listed, but making melee not a total liability/bad choice for grouping, in classic, I am fully on board with.

I'd vote for the charm nerfs for sure.

As for the druid clarity - I'm against that.

Instead of making druids (or wizards as someone else mentioned) more desirable in groups by giving them a clarity-esque spell, why don't we just make soloing viable again? Basically, increase the ZEM for outdoor zones or reduce the ZEM for dungeons.

That way, you can kill 3 birds (druid / wizard / necro group issues) with one stone.

#necrolivesmatter

i have never played an enchanter, doubt i ever will. INT casters arent my thing

this thread is a joke.

Reducing ench charm lvl doesn't seem to bad...Might tone down on multiple enchanters in 1 group cuz another dps would be better/equal without the additional risk factor of another charm breaking. /shrug

the only thing "wrong" with melee classes in classic is that there are just about 0 decent weapon options until you get to lower guk, especially now that they have removed the runnyeye weapons. thats cause classic eq itemization is piss poor, to put it mildly.

which is funny, cause the reason low to mid level spells got upgraded years and years ago was because people twinked melee characters, and casters couldnt compete. making the spells better was their answer.

Melee are bad because they can't get good melee wapons who knew?

Melee are painfully terrible in classic. They get better in velious+ when serious twink gear comes out, but prevelious Melee are a liability. Increasing their power at lower levels would greatly help.